Author Topic: Was there actual 'evidence' Madeleine might have died in apartment 5a?  (Read 24566 times)

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Offline Mr Gray

Mark Harrison certainly knew what he was talking about...and this is what he said...

Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence.

perhaps you and others should take note

10
« Last Edit: April 05, 2016, 02:16:38 PM by John »

Offline blonk

Mark Harrison certainly knew what he was talking about...and this is what he said...

Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence.

perhaps you and others should take note

But take note also that LCN DNA profiling, as its techniques improve, could yet establish that Madeleine McCann WAS the source of the body fluids in Swab 3A.

It must not be assumed that we will not, one day, find confirmation that those WERE her body fluids.

Even D C I Redwood of Operation Grange said there was EVIDENCE that she might have died 'in the apartment' - that was in a statement he made in early 2013 IIRC.  That means 'before her body was removed from the apartment'.

Think about it.

What evidence would that be, I wonder???

-------------------------------------

JOHN LOWE TO STUART PRIOR, 3 SEPTEMBER 2007

>From: Lowe, Mr J R [mailto:John.Lowe@fss.pnn.police.uk
>Sent: 03 September 2007 15:01
>To: stuart.prior@leicestershire.pnn.police.uk
>Subject: Op Task - In Confidence

Stuart

Firstly, here are the last three results you are expecting

An incomplete DNA result was obtained from cellular material on the swab 3A. The swab contained very little information and showed low level indications of DNA from more than one person. However, all of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Madeline McCann. LCN DNA profiling is highly sensitive, it is not possible to attribute this DNA profile to a particular body fluid.

There is no evidence to support the view that Madeline McCann contributed DNA to the swab 3B.

A complex LCN DNA result which appeared to have originated from at least three people was obtained from cellular material recovered from the luggage compartment section 286C 2007 CRL10 (2) area 2. Within the DNA profile of Madeline McCann there are 20 DNA components represented by 19 peaks on a chart. At one of the areas of DNA we routinely examine Madeleine has inherited the same DNA component from both parents; this appears therefore as 1 peak rather than 2, hence 19 rather than 20. Of these 19 components 15 are present within the result from this item; there are 37 components in total. There are 37 components because there are at least 3 contributors; but there could be up to five contributors. In my opinion therefore this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation/inclusion.

Why?...

Well, lets look at the question that is being asked

"Is there DNA from Madeline on the swab?"

It would be very simple to say "yes" simply because of the number of components within the result that are also in her reference sample.

What we need to consider, as scientists, is whether the match is genuine and legitimate; because Madeline has deposited DNA as a result of being in the car or whether Madeline merely appears to match the result by chance. The individual components in Madeline's profile are not unique to her, it is the specific combination of 19 components that makes her profile unique above all others. Elements of Madeline's profile are also present within the profiles of many of the scientists here in Birmingham, myself included. lt's important to stress that 50% of Madeline's profile will be shared with each parent. It is not possible in a mixture of more than two people, to determine or evaluate which specific DNA components pair with each other. Namely, we cannot separate the components out into 3 individual DNA profiles.

Therefore, we cannot answer the question: Is the match genuine or is it a chance match.

The same applies to any result that is quoted as being too complex for meaningful inclusion/interpretation

What questions will we never be able to answer with LCN DNA profiling?

When was the DNA deposited?
How was the DNA deposited?
What body fluid(s) does the DIVA originate from?
Was a crime committed?

Offline Mr Gray

But take note also that LCN DNA profiling, as its techniques improve, could yet establish that Madeleine McCann WAS the source of the body fluids in Swab 3A.

It must not be assumed that we will not, one day, find confirmation that those WERE her body fluids.

Even D C I Redwood of Operation Grange said there was EVIDENCE that she might have died 'in the apartment' - that was in a statement he made in early 2013 IIRC.  That means 'before her body was removed from the apartment'.

Think about it.

What evidence would that be, I wonder???

-------------------------------------

JOHN LOWE TO STUART PRIOR, 3 SEPTEMBER 2007

>From: Lowe, Mr J R [mailto:John.Lowe@fss.pnn.police.uk
>Sent: 03 September 2007 15:01
>To: stuart.prior@leicestershire.pnn.police.uk
>Subject: Op Task - In Confidence

Stuart

Firstly, here are the last three results you are expecting

An incomplete DNA result was obtained from cellular material on the swab 3A. The swab contained very little information and showed low level indications of DNA from more than one person. However, all of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Madeline McCann. LCN DNA profiling is highly sensitive, it is not possible to attribute this DNA profile to a particular body fluid.

There is no evidence to support the view that Madeline McCann contributed DNA to the swab 3B.

A complex LCN DNA result which appeared to have originated from at least three people was obtained from cellular material recovered from the luggage compartment section 286C 2007 CRL10 (2) area 2. Within the DNA profile of Madeline McCann there are 20 DNA components represented by 19 peaks on a chart. At one of the areas of DNA we routinely examine Madeleine has inherited the same DNA component from both parents; this appears therefore as 1 peak rather than 2, hence 19 rather than 20. Of these 19 components 15 are present within the result from this item; there are 37 components in total. There are 37 components because there are at least 3 contributors; but there could be up to five contributors. In my opinion therefore this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation/inclusion.

Why?...

Well, lets look at the question that is being asked

"Is there DNA from Madeline on the swab?"

It would be very simple to say "yes" simply because of the number of components within the result that are also in her reference sample.

What we need to consider, as scientists, is whether the match is genuine and legitimate; because Madeline has deposited DNA as a result of being in the car or whether Madeline merely appears to match the result by chance. The individual components in Madeline's profile are not unique to her, it is the specific combination of 19 components that makes her profile unique above all others. Elements of Madeline's profile are also present within the profiles of many of the scientists here in Birmingham, myself included. lt's important to stress that 50% of Madeline's profile will be shared with each parent. It is not possible in a mixture of more than two people, to determine or evaluate which specific DNA components pair with each other. Namely, we cannot separate the components out into 3 individual DNA profiles.

Therefore, we cannot answer the question: Is the match genuine or is it a chance match.

The same applies to any result that is quoted as being too complex for meaningful inclusion/interpretation

What questions will we never be able to answer with LCN DNA profiling?

When was the DNA deposited?
How was the DNA deposited?
What body fluid(s) does the DIVA originate from?
Was a crime committed?
i don't recall redwood using  the word evidence in this context,,...do you have a cite

Offline blonk

Here is one of the cites for my assertion that D C I Redwood and his team have found evidence that Madeleine did not leave Apartment G5A alive:

Guardian newspaper, 19 March 2014

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/19/madeleine-mccann-breakthrough-attacks-family

But there are aspects to the emerging evidence of a sexual predator being active in the holiday resorts of western Portugal that could be devastating for Madeleine's parents. Research shows that such predators do not leave their victims alive for long – a matter of hours is usual. Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood admitted that what they have uncovered means Madeleine might not have left the apartment alive.


It is possible that someone on this thread will intone: "Ah! Look! He didn't use the actual word evidence".

If any member here does venture a similar comment, then what else apart from actual EVIDENCE has he 'uncovered'?

[ P.S. @ davel    Did I actually state as a PROVEN FACT that there was a 100% DNA match for Madeleine? If I did not, it might be better to withdraw your claim - and save Admin and John any further bother ]

 
« Last Edit: April 05, 2016, 01:51:45 PM by John »

Offline Mr Gray

Really, davel, I should have thought that Admin and the forum-owner, whom Eleanor wants called in, would be better employed removing some of the petty abuse that clogs up this and far too many other Madeleine threads here.

Here is one of the cites for my assertion that D C I Redwood and his team have found evidence that Madeleine did not leave Apartment G5A alive:

Guardian newspaper, 19 March 2014

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/19/madeleine-mccann-breakthrough-attacks-family

But there are aspects to the emerging evidence of a sexual predator being active in the holiday resorts of western Portugal that could be devastating for Madeleine's parents. Research shows that such predators do not leave their victims alive for long – a matter of hours is usual. Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood admitted that what they have uncovered means Madeleine might not have left the apartment alive.


It is possible that someone on this thread will intone: "Ah! Look! He didn't use the actual word evidence".

If any member here does venture a similar comment, then what else apart from actual EVIDENCE has he 'uncovered'?

[ P.S. @ davel    Did I actually state as a PROVEN FACT that there was a 100% DNA match for Madeleine? If I did not, it might be better to withdraw your claim - and save Admin and John any further bother ]

lets start with this statement you made today...

Even D C I Redwood of Operation Grange said there was EVIDENCE that she might have died 'in the apartment' - that was in a statement he made in early 2013 IIRC.  That means 'before her body was removed from the apartment'.


could you show where Redwood said there was evidence........what you are saying is untrue


stephen25000

  • Guest
lets start with this statement you made today...

Even D C I Redwood of Operation Grange said there was EVIDENCE that she might have died 'in the apartment' - that was in a statement he made in early 2013 IIRC.  That means 'before her body was removed from the apartment'.


could you show where Redwood said there was evidence........what you are saying is untrue

Why not answer blonks PS ?

Offline Mr Gray

This reminds me of something...

Ah yes!

The initial finding of a '100% match' between the body fluid samples first detected by Eddie and Keela - and Madeleine's DNA.   

But of course that wasn't the final 'corroborated' result.

then we have this...there never was an initial finding of 100% dna match...another post of yours that is not true

Offline pegasus

"There is always the potential that she didn't leave the apartment alive"
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-mccann-idUSBREA2I1D220140319

Offline Mr Gray

Why not answer blonks PS ?

I just have...but why has blonk not replied to my previous questions of posting things as fact which are patently untrue

Offline Mr Gray

"There is always the potential that she didn't leave the apartment alive"
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-mccann-idUSBREA2I1D220140319

thank you...I am right...Redwood never said there was evidence...blonks post is not true

Offline John

Re: Was there actual 'evidence' Madeleine might have died in apartment 5a?
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2016, 02:15:50 PM »
I am allowing this discussion on the proviso that posters back up any claims with quotes and/or cites.

A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Was there actual 'evidence' Madeleine might have died in apartment 5a?
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2016, 02:25:31 PM »
But take note also that LCN DNA profiling, as its techniques improve, could yet establish that Madeleine McCann WAS the source of the body fluids in Swab 3A.

It must not be assumed that we will not, one day, find confirmation that those WERE her body fluids.

Even D C I Redwood of Operation Grange said there was EVIDENCE that she might have died 'in the apartment' - that was in a statement he made in early 2013 IIRC.  That means 'before her body was removed from the apartment'.

Think about it.

What evidence would that be, I wonder???

-------------------------------------

JOHN LOWE TO STUART PRIOR, 3 SEPTEMBER 2007

>From: Lowe, Mr J R [mailto:John.Lowe@fss.pnn.police.uk
>Sent: 03 September 2007 15:01
>To: stuart.prior@leicestershire.pnn.police.uk
>Subject: Op Task - In Confidence

Stuart

Firstly, here are the last three results you are expecting

An incomplete DNA result was obtained from cellular material on the swab 3A. The swab contained very little information and showed low level indications of DNA from more than one person. However, all of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Madeline McCann. LCN DNA profiling is highly sensitive, it is not possible to attribute this DNA profile to a particular body fluid.

There is no evidence to support the view that Madeline McCann contributed DNA to the swab 3B.

A complex LCN DNA result which appeared to have originated from at least three people was obtained from cellular material recovered from the luggage compartment section 286C 2007 CRL10 (2) area 2. Within the DNA profile of Madeline McCann there are 20 DNA components represented by 19 peaks on a chart. At one of the areas of DNA we routinely examine Madeleine has inherited the same DNA component from both parents; this appears therefore as 1 peak rather than 2, hence 19 rather than 20. Of these 19 components 15 are present within the result from this item; there are 37 components in total. There are 37 components because there are at least 3 contributors; but there could be up to five contributors. In my opinion therefore this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation/inclusion.

Why?...

Well, lets look at the question that is being asked

"Is there DNA from Madeline on the swab?"

It would be very simple to say "yes" simply because of the number of components within the result that are also in her reference sample.

What we need to consider, as scientists, is whether the match is genuine and legitimate; because Madeline has deposited DNA as a result of being in the car or whether Madeline merely appears to match the result by chance. The individual components in Madeline's profile are not unique to her, it is the specific combination of 19 components that makes her profile unique above all others. Elements of Madeline's profile are also present within the profiles of many of the scientists here in Birmingham, myself included. lt's important to stress that 50% of Madeline's profile will be shared with each parent. It is not possible in a mixture of more than two people, to determine or evaluate which specific DNA components pair with each other. Namely, we cannot separate the components out into 3 individual DNA profiles.

Therefore, we cannot answer the question: Is the match genuine or is it a chance match.

The same applies to any result that is quoted as being too complex for meaningful inclusion/interpretation

What questions will we never be able to answer with LCN DNA profiling?

When was the DNA deposited?
How was the DNA deposited?
What body fluid(s) does the DIVA originate from?
Was a crime committed?

Eddie never alerted to the boot of the car.

Let's trust the dog on this.

He scented (accurately) the only scent-source to be identified from the Renault, provenance Gerry McCann ...
« Last Edit: April 05, 2016, 04:40:00 PM by Slartibartfast »

Offline pegasus

Re: Was there actual 'evidence' Madeleine might have died in apartment 5a?
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2016, 02:44:35 PM »
No witness saw the child leaving the apartment alive.

Offline Jean-Pierre

Re: Was there actual 'evidence' Madeleine might have died in apartment 5a?
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2016, 02:45:54 PM »
Eddie never alerted to the boot of the car.

Let's trust the dog on this.

He scented (accurately) the only scent-source to be identified from the Renault, provenance Gerry McCann ...

You are quite correct FM -

Step 1:  dog sniffs round, alerts in a particular place.

Step 2: This leads to a forensic search, and the source of the alert being the keycard. 

Step 3:  Tests confirm this, and the subsequent finding of a trace of blood on the keycard is traced to Gerry McCann. 

Job done.

 

References: 
"An incomplete, low-level DNA profile that matched corresponding components in the profile of Gerald McCann was obtained from cellular material present on the card key -  (286C/2007-CRL (12)). I guess this is the fob of the car-keys "  http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm




 
« Last Edit: April 05, 2016, 04:40:37 PM by Slartibartfast »

Offline pegasus

Re: Was there actual 'evidence' Madeleine might have died in apartment 5a?
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2016, 02:48:55 PM »
There are 3 possibilities for the specific calendar date of the 3rd:
1) left apartment alive
2) left apartment not alive
3) did not leave apartment
« Last Edit: April 05, 2016, 02:51:30 PM by pegasus »