Jeremy Bamber - The case in a nutshell.

[Holly Goodhead]

I also have a huge problem why Sheila would choose to kill herself in the position she was found, in my opinion it makes no sense whatsoever.  Then there is the assault on her beloved adoptive father Nevill, she adored the man so again I have a real problem with this for so many reasons.  And finally, I agree that foir Sheila to have done what the Bamber supporters claim she did and end up in such a pristine condition is a claim too far.  It just isn't logical by any stretch of the imagination.  I will add that no trace of blood was found in the bathroom or on any towels in the bathroom at the farm which gives further support to the fact that Sheila did not wash after the murders. 

Finally, it should be pointed out that specks of blood were found in several places associated with Jeremy Bamber.  He also had strange marks on his arm which Julie Mugford recorded as seeing.  He also told Julie that the assassin had lost a glove during the altercation with Nevill.  Was this really something an innocent man would invent?

I think I've answered most of the points you raise John via posts to Scipio above other than the following:

We don't know how SC's relationship with NB and June were affected by her reunion with her birth family which took place only weeks before the murders.  Maybe NB was unhappy about this.  Certainly CC and Sheila's best friend Tora Tompkins met SC's birth mother but NB and June didn't.

AE observed JB's arms on 9th Aug and noted they were without any marks

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3419.msg143404#msg143404

[Myster]

Was the blood on the bible forensically analysed?  If it was the results are unknown.  We have no idea whose blood was on the bible.

According to RWB's WS's June read the bible in bed.  June was a deeply religious woman and having sustained gunshot wounds whilst in bed she was still able to move herself from her side of the bed to NB's side.  It is possible that she held the bible and dropped it NB's side of the bed with the blood originating from June's gunshot injuries.  The bible may then have been moved by the perp accessing the twins rooms from the main bedroom via the box room and back again thus opening and closing the door causing the bible to move.  The perp may have knowingly or unknowingly moved the bible or it might even have been moved by Crispy nudging it. 

The idea JB staged the bible and all the rest of it is pure speculation.

Geez... your door shoving/Crispy nudging theory IS speculation!

The part I agree with is that June, being an allegedly light sleeper, might have been reading the bible in bed when it all kicked off.

But... when first shot in the neck, she automatically felt the wound with her hand which became covered in blood and the female? palm print (if Caroline's theory is true) was applied when she tried to get hold of the bible again after having at first dropped it. The book then closed on its own which created the vague matching impression on the opposite page. As she got up and wandered around the room, the bible remained on the bed or fell to the floor on her bedside. Thinking on the fly, JB after having killed Sheila, decided to place it on her opened at the blood-stained pages to give the impression she was reading it while in a religious mania for forgiveness at what she had done. QED

[Holly Goodhead]

Geez... your door shoving/Crispy nudging theory IS speculation!

The part I agree with is that June, being an allegedly light sleeper, might have been reading the bible in bed when it all kicked off.

But... when first shot in the neck, she automatically felt the wound with her hand which became covered in blood and the female? palm print (if Caroline's theory is true) was applied when she tried to get hold of the bible again after having at first dropped it. The book then closed on its own which created the vague matching impression on the opposite page. As she got up and wandered around the room, the bible remained on the bed or fell to the floor on her bedside. Thinking on the fly, JB after having killed Sheila, decided to place it on her opened at the blood-stained pages to give the impression she was reading it while in a religious mania for forgiveness at what she had done. QED

Yes I agree my door opening/Crispy nudging theories are speculation and that's why I used the word "may".  Scipio posts his theories as fact eg "the bible was moved after her death but before her blood dried".

1.  No proof whose blood was on the bible.
2.  No proof the blood on the bible was SC's as opposed to June's.
3.  No proof the bible was moved after SC's death but before the blood had dried.

If JB staged the bible why not lay it on thick with officers about SC and religiosity?  JB never once mentioned such to officers either on the phone or whilst stood outside at WHF.  He only passed comment on her mental illness.

I think June probably went round NB's side of the bed intending to use the phone and I can imagine her holding the bible due to her strong faith.  As far as I can see it's as plausible and possible as other theories put forward.

[Myster]

Yes I agree my door opening/Crispy nudging theories are speculation and that's why I used the word "may".  Scipio posts his theories as fact eg "the bible was moved after her death but before her blood dried".

1.  No proof whose blood was on the bible.
2.  No proof the blood on the bible was SC's as opposed to June's.
3.  No proof the bible was moved after SC's death but before the blood had dried.

If JB staged the bible why not lay it on thick with officers about SC and religiosity?  JB never once mentioned such to officers either on the phone or whilst stood outside at WHF.  He only passed comment on her mental illness.

I think June probably went round NB's side of the bed intending to use the phone and I can imagine her holding the bible due to her strong faith.  As far as I can see it's as plausible and possible as other theories put forward.

But boy, how he laid it on thick about Sheila being armed, deranged and dangerous when she was nothing of the sort!

Jeremy: She’s a depressive psychopath, she’s been having psychiatric treatment, she only came out of hospital about six weeks ago.

Myall:  Is she capable of using a gun?

Jeremy: Yes, she used to come target shooting with me and she’s used all the guns before. (when she had done no such thing, of course!)

[adam]

Bews said in a documentary Bamber was volunteering information which usually the police have to ask for.

Bamber quickly suggested Sheila could have shot everyone 'that moved things up a notch' said Bews.

[scipio_usmc]

If the perp wore gloves then void patterns would be a natural outcome.  There was no evidence of void patterns as the low velocity bullets are unlikely to produce high velocity back spatter.  The rifle contained blood in the form of "splashes" and "smears" which is inconsistent with high velocity back spatter.  Once a victim sustains a gunshot wound the likelihood of subsequent wounds causing back spatter are reduced due to changes in physiology ie blood pressure. 

The only void patterns that gloves would cause would be a void the killer's hands would be devoid of blood while blood would still be found on their arms/ other clothing.

Many times you have made up the nonsense that 22 calibers are unlikely to produce backspatter but such is false.  You take evidence that says the larger the bullet the more likely and you then make up this means unlikely.  The likelihood depends on the location of the shot. The availability of blood in the location of the shot and nature of the body part including skin in that area will determine such.

There are tons of cases where spatter has been found from 22LR weapons.  The speed of 22LR bullets is greater than many larger bullets including 45 caliber bullets.  You make way too many broad claims that are not true.

Spatter was found on the moderator and a few forward areas of the rifle. We don't know which victims such came from and don't know if the killer was also hit or not.

The blood on the stock clearly was from bashing Nevill not high velocity spatter. The quantity was much more substantial. The killer's hand was on the stock as it was being bashed into Nevill and no doubt some blood got on such hand not merely on the stock. It got on the glove no doubt.  There is no doubt the glove had blood on the palm side not merely the back hand side. Blood was transferred from the glove to the broken area. When firing the gun after Nevill was beaten the killer had to touch the area of the stock that was broken to fire it. If the killer had been holding it bare handed blood would have been on the killer's hands and prints would have been left.

I just watched a program about a case where a wife drugged her husband then killed him and got his blood on her hands. For some stupid reason she threw the syringe in the trash can instead of taking it from the house.  She dumped his body and reported him missing. Upon searching the house they found the syringe with her bloody print on it. No doubt the murder weapon also had her bloody prints on it but that she had enough sense to toss somewhere away from the house so it was never recovered. When people handle bloody objects especially weapons they leave prints on it or even other objects. The lack of any prints reveals quite clearly the killer was wearing gloves and the lack of any spatter on Sheila establishes she was no where near Nevill when he was beaten.

I certainly haven't claimed DI Cook had lousy intution or made any adverse comments about him other than pointing out his claims that had SC been responsible he would have expected to find more of her fingerprints on the rifle.  This is wrong.  Google 'fingerprints and firearms' and you can see for yourself that a whole variety of reasons hamper recovery of fingerprints from firearms.  Given that DI Cook was the fingerprint expert this does show a lack of incompetence on his part and/or a lack of training/supervision in the area of fingerprinting.

Agreed.

Even after he found only 1 of her prints he still believed she did it. He still agreed with Taff Jones nothing had changed. The lack of her prints in blood is what is significant because if she handled the bloody weapon she would have left her prints on it and probably elsewhere. No one's prints were found in blood because gloves were worn. 

Why would one expect to find medium velcoity spatter on the rifle when there was not even enough to permit blood grouping analysis?  If the rifle was used to wield blows to NB and you are expecting medium impact spatter on the rifle and perp why not other objects too such as walls, ceiling, furniture and the cream aga?  Two tiny blood stains on the landing carpet were analysed along with a small section of wallpaper around the hall/kitchen entrance.  If blood was present elsewhere it would have been noted.  I believe there was some blood around the aga, according to CAL's book, but again this was in the form of smears and not representative of high or medium impact spatter from gunshot wounds.

The experts described the blood on the rifle butt as splashes and smears. Splashes means spatter. The killer touched some of the areas that had splashes and smeared such blood.  It was smeared by gloves or other clothing.  The blood got there from beating Nevill and some was smeared by the killer afterwards.  It didn't just hit the weapon it hit the killer who was wielding it.

The police made no effort to document spatter in the kitchen. They didn't care about it.  They documented blood on the wall that came from Nevill leaning on the wall to help them trace Nevill's steps.  That is also why they tested the blood int he hall and near the foot of the bed in the master bedroom.

The rifle was fired 25 times in quick succession and SC sustained 2 contact gunshot wounds.  The rifle was found across her body with her hand resting on the rifle so the fact no GSR was found means diddly squat.  Did swabbing take place at SoC?  No it took place at the lab after SC's hands had been placed in bags and she had been transported from WHF in a body bag to the path lab.  Her nightdress was not tested straight away and there's no evidence to suggest it was handled in a manner conducive to preserving GSR.

It means a great deal to someone who is objective which you are not.  The fatal shot to Sheila was a contact shot the first shot was not. The gun had a moderator which brought the area of the weapon that ejected PGSR far from her body. That is why she had no PGSR on her.  If she fired 25 shots she would have had PGSR on her hands and body. Moreover if she shot herself, which requires the moderator to not be attached, then the areas that eject PGSR would have been adjacent to her gown.   For sure it would have gotten on the bottom of her gown as well as other discharges.  You want to pretend otherwise because of your bias.  That same bias makes you ridiculously suggest that PGSR vanishes easily from clothing.  That is patently false.  The most reliable places to look for PGSR is in hair and clothing because it takes much greater effort to remove.  They didn't move her body until after protecting her hands to preserve and discharges on her hands.  You ignore science to make up poor excuses like that it just dissipates fro a body so you can try to dismiss inconvenient evidence.

These excuses are the hallmarks of Jeremy apologists.

Was the broken stock forensically analysed for biological material or fibres from any glove used?  No.  It is not known how the stock broke.  If it was being swung around like a golf club with the stock used as a club head it may have hit a number of items including NB's bones.  Therfore the perp might not have had his/her hand on the stock when it broke.  It's all pure speculation.

There is no such thing as analyzing it to find proof of a glove. Blood is biological material. I have already explained many times the way in which a rifle is used to beat someone. You nonetheless spout the same ridiculous theories anyway which show extreme bias in addition to ignorance.  The back of the weapon is heavier and the front too slim it would be quite unwieldy trying to use it like a golf club the killer would lose control of it and either it would slip from his hands or worse be taken away because the killer would have a poor grasp while the victim could get a good grasp of the handle or worse even grab the trigger guard securely.  Moreover, because the barrel of this weapon is removable and held in place by simply a screw doing such would result in the barrel being damaged and no longer being able to shoot it. Moreover, the cracks to the stock would be running sideways instead of forward to back. The rifle split at the top from compression.  There were other cracks running the same direction from compression.  Someone was forcing the butt into Nevill and this compressed the stock because one end was against Nevill while the other end was being pushed by the killer.  If you put both ends of the butt in a vice and twisted it the breaks would be longways.

Hitting the side of the butt as opposed to backplate against something while it is attached to the metal receiver results in the metal knob inside the stock breaking the side of the stock. Take a 2X4 piece of wood and drive a large fat spike 1 inch deep inside the top of it (not the sides). If swinging it while holding the spike that would simulate the motion of swinging it like a bat or club.  Simulate that by simply bending the spike to one side until it snaps the wood. That's the kind of damage that the knob would have cause to the side if it were swung like a club. 

The wounds to Nevill were from the back of the butt not the side of the stock. The side is wide and doesn't cause the wounds like he had.  You can ignore reality all you like but it just harms your credibility.

You want to ignore how the weapon was actually used because you want to pretend the killer used it in a manner that would not have resulted in any evidence getting on the killer.  Such is futile.

When the pathologist was asked about the potential damage to SC's nails from loading and firing the weapon he said he was not qualified to give an opinion.  All this business about fingernails is nothing other than sexist comments from uninformed males.  One only has to look at the nails/polish adorning the hands of the William sisters on the tennis courts to know that nails are hardy.  Not only do Serena and Venus engage in gruelling rallies hitting tennis balls reaching in excess of 100 mph but they undergo extensive training regimes eg lifting weights etc.  This would be like me trying to convince males that if they are hit hard in the nuts it doesn't hurt!

So hardy that I have seen women damage them closing minivan doors, typing, while using shovels and baseballs bats...

Vanezis knew little about firearms and how they would be used in beatings and thus was unwilling to venture any guesses.  It was wise because he was too ignorant to even recognize that the butt of the weapon was used to strike Nevill's arms.  A military doctor could have told him exactly what caused the wounds but he should have had a clue anyway given he recognized the stock was used to bash his head in. He knew Nevill was trying to protect himself from blows and knew eventually the blows got through and bashed his head in. Logic alone suggests that in that case he was trying to protect his face and head with his arm but eventually the butt got through to his head.

Wielding a rifle to beat someone causes the same damage to hands and long nails that will be caused by wielding a long shovel or the like. You have friction from it sliding and vibrating. Strike something that is hard and see the vibrations you get.

You are again desperate to ignore reality so you can pretend that the lack of any damage of any kind to her nails and hands mean nothing.  the reality is far different. 

Many factors affect high velocity back spatter from gunshot wounds, especially bullet velocity.  What is closer to a victim when they sustain a gunshot wound the firearm or the perp?  The firearm.  The rifle was foresnically analysed.  It contained blood "smears" and "splashes" and no evidence of high velocity impact spatter which represents a fine mist.   Therefore it does not follow that the perp would sustain high impact blood spatter on his/her person.

The location of the wound is the major key to whether back spatter will occur. Greater velocity increases the odds of a bullet exiting and forward spatter being possible. The larger a bullet the greater the chance of hitting an area that will result in spatter that is the main reason bullet size increases the odds.  That is also why a larger bullet has a better chance of being more deadly. The bigger the bullet the less precise you have to be in order to hit a vital area.   

Splashes are what they were calling spatter. Smears means blood was touched and spread after being deposited. The killer touched some of the areas covered with splashes and smeared it. That is done by hands, gloves if gloves are worn on the hands and can also be done by clothing. The clothes of the shooter will be against part of the rifle as it is being fired.

The blood on the face of the moderator was very small it was indeed high velocity spatter. bashing Nevill with the butt would not get any blood on the face of the moderator. the tiny deposit of blood in the knurled portion of the moderator and forward areas of the also could have been high velocity spatter.  It also could have been medium velocity spatter from beating Nevill but it surely got on the killer as well. It didn't fly to the moderator yet not get on the hand and arm of the killer and probably got on the face of the killer as well.

[scipio_usmc]

I had to split my post in 2 because of size limits

There's no evidence tiny blood stains found on JB's clothing were in any way connected to the murders.  If one was to foresnically analyse most mens clothing, especially farmers, they are likely to find small blood stains from shaving and minor scrapes during the course of their work.

We don't know if it was blood or not because they tested it too late to be able to figure out what it was. If it had been assessed to be blood he would have been screwed. You don't get tiny flicks from shaving or any other manner except someone wheezing tiny drops of blood.  The spots were consistent with high velocity spatter. maybe some were also consistent with medium velocity spatter based on the size. There was a considerable amount of drops. You must have cut your legs shaving at some point cutting a face is no different.

Jeremy claimed it was paint flicks. The only way you get flicks on yourself from a brush is if you waive the brush at yourself or someone or actively flick the bristles. Just ordinary painting will not result in that so police were very skeptical. But the laundering prevented them from being able to figure out if it was paint or blood or something else. He should have been smart enough to trow away any clothing he used but some people are dumb and don't. If he was one of the dumb ones and it was blood he was lucky because police waited too long to take his clothing to be able to find out it was blood. Only Jeremy knows whether it was blood or not.       

There's no evidence NB was shot in the bedroom.

Yes there is. The 4 shell casings associated with his upstairs woulds were in the bedroom.  The bullet that grazed him was int he bedroom.  The location of the casings corresponds to where they would be with the killer firing at Nevill's side of the bed.  All 4 wounds were to Nevill's left profile which means the killer was facing his left profile when firing these 4 shots.  The angle of two shots precludes Nevill being fully upright and thus is supportive of him sitting on the bed to get up. Trying to pretend he was int he hall when shot or a different room upstairs is futile.   

I agree NB was still mobile after sustaining the four GSW's upstairs but as per the pathologist he was in considerable pain, losing blood fast internally and externally and had lost the use of his left arm.  The pathologist said NB put up a "spirited defence" this is not the same as entering a "violent struggle".  The pathologist makes it clear that had other injuries not supervened the two facial shots would have eventually killed NB.

It makes no difference that he would eventually have bled to death if he was not tended to medically that is true of most gunshot wounds. What matter sit that it would have taken a long time and thus failed to inhibit him much. If not for the broken arm he might have won the fight with Jeremy. There is no question his beating resulted in spatter. The splashes on the stock were described by the experts as getting there from striking someone who was bleeding that is the definition of medium velocity spatter they simply didn't use such wording they said splash instead of spatter.   

All of the above have already been answered in points above (repeating yourself doesn't make your points more valid) other than your claims that bedding from the main bedroom was destroyed before being forensically analysed.  According to DC Hammersly's trial testimony everything of evidential value was removed from the bed in the main bedroom and forensically analysed.   The only bedding that was destroyed and not forensically analysed was that from the twins room.  This was tipped out of the window straight onto a trailer and burned in the grounds.

The quilt was burned not taken and analyzed we have the evidence records of what was taken and bedding not taken was mentioned as being destroyed.  No examination was made to document spatter in the room or on the bedding.  Identify the exhibit number of the quilt.  it's not on any exhibit list or referred to in any statement because it wasn't taken nor did they document if any blood was on the table or the various blood drops on the carpet apart from the swatches they cut out.  They left bloody carpet there at the scene.  They didn't test the blood int he carpet left in the bedroom or even all drops on the 2 samples they took. They tested 5 drops on each sample.  For all you know some of the drops they failed to test was Nevill's. 

You make very illogical arguments.  We know Nevill as shot 4 times upstairs and yet only 1 drip of blood that was tested was his. You seem to be suggesting since no other blood of his was detected this means for sure he was shot in the hall.  By your own admission there was no spatter found int he hall just a single static drop.  Why is it that there would have to be spatter in the bedroom if he were shot there but there doesn't have to be any spatter in the hall? 

The truth is that the nature of his wounds are such that he could have been shot in the bedroom without bleeding on anything in there.

The graze wound would not result in blood, the arm wound would not result in blood his clothing absorbed it. He could have walked in the hall before any blood dripped from his lip or jaw. So a lack of blood int he bedroom would not prove he wasn't shot there anyway.  We know the police cleaned up blood left at the scene though and destroyed things left at the scene that could not be cleaned. There could have been blood of Nevill's in the bedroom you can't rule it out.

The casings and bullet that grazed Nevill being found in the bedroom proves that is where he was shot. 

It is impossible for him to have been shot to hies left profile while on the stairs so we know for sure he wasn't shot there even ignoring the casings.  It is time to stop trying to twist the evidence to support what you want to argue and instead viewing the evidence objectively and taking it as it is.

[Holly Goodhead]

I had to split my post in 2 because of size limits

I would be grateful if you could try and keep your posts brief and to the point. 

We don't know if it was blood or not because they tested it too late to be able to figure out what it was. If it had been assessed to be blood he would have been screwed. You don't get tiny flicks from shaving or any other manner except someone wheezing tiny drops of blood.  The spots were consistent with high velocity spatter. maybe some were also consistent with medium velocity spatter based on the size. There was a considerable amount of drops. You must have cut your legs shaving at some point cutting a face is no different.

Jeremy claimed it was paint flicks. The only way you get flicks on yourself from a brush is if you waive the brush at yourself or someone or actively flick the bristles. Just ordinary painting will not result in that so police were very skeptical. But the laundering prevented them from being able to figure out if it was paint or blood or something else. He should have been smart enough to trow away any clothing he used but some people are dumb and don't. If he was one of the dumb ones and it was blood he was lucky because police waited too long to take his clothing to be able to find out it was blood. Only Jeremy knows whether it was blood or not.

John Hayward was able to confirm the blood found on JB's jacket was human in origin.

You can read about it here.  John Hayward and Dr Lincoln concluded that it was unlikely to be relevant to the murders:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=933

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=935

First time I've heard about these claims of paint flicks.  Please provide the documentary evidence to support.
     

Yes there is. The 4 shell casings associated with his upstairs woulds were in the bedroom.  The bullet that grazed him was int he bedroom.  The location of the casings corresponds to where they would be with the killer firing at Nevill's side of the bed.  All 4 wounds were to Nevill's left profile which means the killer was facing his left profile when firing these 4 shots.  The angle of two shots precludes Nevill being fully upright and thus is supportive of him sitting on the bed to get up. Trying to pretend he was int he hall when shot or a different room upstairs is futile.

We have debated this extensively here and I don't propose to do so again.  I stand by my claims in this thread that the four gunshot wounds NB sustained upstairs happened on the landing.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6883.msg293857#msg293857

It makes no difference that he would eventually have bled to death if he was not tended to medically that is true of most gunshot wounds. What matter sit that it would have taken a long time and thus failed to inhibit him much. If not for the broken arm he might have won the fight with Jeremy. There is no question his beating resulted in spatter. The splashes on the stock were described by the experts as getting there from striking someone who was bleeding that is the definition of medium velocity spatter they simply didn't use such wording they said splash instead of spatter. 

The pathologist stated "..not immediately life threatening although could well have been if other injuries had not supervened.  However I cannot say over what period of time this would have occurred.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=724

The combined injuries from the facial shots and shoulder causing total incapaciation to NB's left arm left him defenceless.

The pathologist states NB's non-gunshot injuries are consistent with blows from a blunt instrument and it seems likely this was the rifle.  However as previously stated the blood on the rifle described as "splashes" and "smears" was of insufficient quantity to permit blood grouping analysis therefore it does not follow that the perp would sustain medium velocity spatter on his/her person.  There was no evidence of medium velocity spatter in the vicinty of NB.

The quilt was burned not taken and analyzed we have the evidence records of what was taken and bedding not taken was mentioned as being destroyed.  No examination was made to document spatter in the room or on the bedding.  Identify the exhibit number of the quilt.  it's not on any exhibit list or referred to in any statement because it wasn't taken nor did they document if any blood was on the table or the various blood drops on the carpet apart from the swatches they cut out.  They left bloody carpet there at the scene.  They didn't test the blood int he carpet left in the bedroom or even all drops on the 2 samples they took. They tested 5 drops on each sample.  For all you know some of the drops they failed to test was Nevill's.

According to DC Hammersley's trial testimony anything of evidential value was removed from the main bed:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=223;image

The blood stained capet samples and blue socks taken from the main bedroom and tested were said to originate from June based on her A blood grouping and the nature of her injuries.

The blood stained carpet fibres taken from the landing and tested were inconclusive,

You make very illogical arguments.  We know Nevill as shot 4 times upstairs and yet only 1 drip of blood that was tested was his. You seem to be suggesting since no other blood of his was detected this means for sure he was shot in the hall.  By your own admission there was no spatter found int he hall just a single static drop.  Why is it that there would have to be spatter in the bedroom if he were shot there but there doesn't have to be any spatter in the hall? 

The truth is that the nature of his wounds are such that he could have been shot in the bedroom without bleeding on anything in there.

The graze wound would not result in blood, the arm wound would not result in blood his clothing absorbed it. He could have walked in the hall before any blood dripped from his lip or jaw. So a lack of blood int he bedroom would not prove he wasn't shot there anyway.  We know the police cleaned up blood left at the scene though and destroyed things left at the scene that could not be cleaned. There could have been blood of Nevill's in the bedroom you can't rule it out.

The casings and bullet that grazed Nevill being found in the bedroom proves that is where he was shot. 

It is impossible for him to have been shot to hies left profile while on the stairs so we know for sure he wasn't shot there even ignoring the casings.  It is time to stop trying to twist the evidence to support what you want to argue and instead viewing the evidence objectively and taking it as it is.

I've only ever claimed NB was shot on the landing and in the kitchen.  I don't know where you get the hall from?  Maybe in the US you refer to the corridor upstairs as a hall.  In the UK we refer to the corridor upstairs as a landing and corridor downstairs as a hall.  Not always a corridor but the area the main rooms lead off of.

There's no evidence of any of NB's blood in the bedroom.  I've previously pointed out that doesn't mean there wasn't any.  The blood on the landing was inconclusive and blood on the stairs was not tested.  Blood on wallpater by the kitchen/hall entrance was shown to originate from NB based on his O blood grouping.  Blood drips on the kitchen floor were not tested but it seems likely they originated from NB. 

The facial shots NB sustained upstairs produced substantial external blood loss as the regions injured contained a rich blood supply.  There's no evidence of his blood in the main bedroom which might be expected from these wounds. 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=726

The other points you raise re bullet casings etc are here:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6883.msg293857#msg293857

[Myster]

I would be grateful if you could try and keep your posts brief and to the point. 

[Holly Goodhead]

Blimey I've only just noticed Scipio's part one 

I've never had to split any posts due to size limits 

This is just silly having long rambling threads.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7135.msg320296#msg320296

There's clearly nothing "nutshell" about the case.

[Myster]

... and we keep goin' round and round and round in... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9VoLCO-d6U

[scipio_usmc]

I would be grateful if you could try and keep your posts brief and to the point. 

John Hayward was able to confirm the blood found on JB's jacket was human in origin.

You can read about it here.  John Hayward and Dr Lincoln concluded that it was unlikely to be relevant to the murders:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=933

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=935

First time I've heard about these claims of paint flicks.  Please provide the documentary evidence to support.

Lincoln only referred to evidence where blood was found. There was blood found on a jacket and on a robe.  There was an additional jacket police took which had small red dots on it. Jeremy claimed the marks were paint.  The lab never figured out what the marks were. Since the dots didn't test positive for blood there was no reason for Lincoln to discuss it.

We have debated this extensively here and I don't propose to do so again.  I stand by my claims in this thread that the four gunshot wounds NB sustained upstairs happened on the landing.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6883.msg293857#msg293857

Your idea of debating is you ignoring reality and just repeating the same disproved nonsense like a broken record.  Your claims were disproved but you refuse to face it and admit it as if your refusal to admit it prevents the refutation from occurring.

You start off that thread with these pathetic fallacies:

"There's no evidence of NB's blood in the main bedroom or casings his side of the bedroom other than the two attributable to SC."

You make 3 FALSE suggestions:

1) that casings would be on Nevill's side of the room if Nevill had been shot while sitting in bed or getting out of bed

2) that Nevill's blood would have to be in the bedroom if he had been shot there

3) that all the blood in the bedroom was tested and none of it was Nevill's

You take these 3 falsehoods and then insist they establish Nevill was not shot in the bedroom.

The 4 casings associated with Nevill's shots were in the bedroom but not on Nevill's side.  There is good reason for them not being on Nevill's side, if someone were at the foot of the bed aiming at Nevill as he sat on the bed to get up the casings would eject to the right of Nevill which means either on top of June's side of the bed or on the floor right next to June's side of the bed. This was explained to you many times but you ignore it because you ignore anything that detracts from your agenda.

The theory you proposed is patently absurd as was explained to you.  You ignored the problems with your claims and stood by them.  Standing by refuted claims doesn't help salvage them.

"My theory is that the perp was in the main bedroom shooting June.  As NB approached the main bedroom he was shot twice on the stairs immediately preceding the entrance to the bedroom in the lip and jaw.  Casings 3 and 4 are attributable to these shots.  The perp was stood at the entrance with the barrel extending onto the landing but the ejection port just inside the door."

A) it is not possible to shoot someone from inside the room while they are on the stairs. The wall of the bedroom prevents shooting someone on the stairs unless you shoot through the wall.  The weapon and thus ejection port has to be in the hall to be able to aim the rifle at someone coming up the stairs. The casings would thus be in the hall.

B) Nevill was not shot in his jaw and lip while facing his killer. Both shots were fired with the killer to Nevill's left. The killer would have to be by Sheila's door as Nevill got to the top step in order to target Nevill's left profile and even then it might not be possible at the exact angle of the shots he suffered. The casings would fly down the stairs.  You never deal with these problems you just maintain the same erroneous claims.

"NB then turned and fled down the stairs with the perp behind him.  The perp then shot NB in the shoulder and elbow on the main staircase.  Casings 13 and 14 are attributable to these shots.  The perp was parallel with the main bedroom door and the ejection port ejected cartridge 13 onto the transition plate of the main bedroom door.  The ejection port ejected cartridge 14 to a similar location but it rolled down the stairs and landed a little way down the landing."

A) Shooting at Nevill's back would result in the casings ejecting down the stairs and right. Your suggestion that the casings would eject into the bedroom is absurd.   If the gun is pointed at someone on the stairs the ejection port is the opposite side of the bedroom door. It ejects forward and right. You are suggesting it ejects directly to the left.

B) Shooting at Nevill's back would result in bullets hitting his back and traveling towards his front.  The trajectory of his arm wound was hitting the outside side of his arm and traveling down/TOWARDS his chest. If the trajectory had been inside the back of arm and towards the front of his arm it would be one thing but that is not what happened.  The shooter was still facing Nevill's left side not his back!  Similarly the trajectory of the round that grazed Nevill was fired while the shooter was facing Nevill's side. The shooter was looking at Nevill's back as he ran down the stairs and grazed the side of his arm and his chest?  Nevill was shot while the killer was facing his left profile. At he walked down the stairs his left profile was to the wall. The only way the killer could shoot him would be shooting through the wall. The wall had no holes it was not shot through. At the end of the day your suggestions are as stupid as any suggestion Mike has made. Moreover, if the graze wound happened while Nevill as on the stairs the bullet that grazed him would have been found on the stairs or in the wall along the stairs.  It wasn't, it was found in the bedroom.

Your theory was made up without regard to the evidence.  You don't want to debate it because your claims were debunked.  You don't care that they were debunked you just want to happily live in denial.
 

The pathologist stated "..not immediately life threatening although could well have been if other injuries had not supervened.  However I cannot say over what period of time this would have occurred.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=724
The combined injuries from the facial shots and shoulder causing total incapaciation to NB's left arm left him defenceless.

The pathologist states NB's non-gunshot injuries are consistent with blows from a blunt instrument and it seems likely this was the rifle.  However as previously stated the blood on the rifle described as "splashes" and "smears" was of insufficient quantity to permit blood grouping analysis therefore it does not follow that the perp would sustain medium velocity spatter on his/her person.  There was no evidence of medium velocity spatter in the vicinty of NB.

Fact: the experts including pathologist said the splashes were consistent with blood being ejected from a victim onto the weapon as the weapon struck the victim.  That is back spatter being described. You ridiculously ignore such to try to pretend the killer would not have been hit by back spatter so you can pretend the absence of back spatter on Sheila is not significant.

Fact: There was no attempt by police to document spatter on the objects in the kitchen.  Your claim they did such and found no blood is false.  You use this false proposition to try to ignore reality and pretend there was no backspatter so you can pretend the killer would have no blood so you can then pretend that Sheila did it.

Fact: A smear means the killer TOUCHED the blood that splashed onto the weapon thereby SPREADING it. By definition the killer came in contact with such blood and it would be on the killer's body and/or clothing- whatever part of the killer smeared the blood would have such blood on it.  You ignore this because it means the killer would have had blood evidence and Sheila lacked such.

Fact: The only wound that limited Nevill's ability to fight back was his damaged arm. How much it limited him we can't say for sure people with broken parts still have some ability to move them.  Clearly he could not use it anywhere near as good if it had not been injured. Time and again you ABSURDLY suggest Nevill passed out and was beaten while he was unconscious.  The scene in the kitchen proves there was a struggle.  Nevill didn't pass out on his own he was beaten till he was unconscious.  The ONLY reason Nevill was beaten till he was unconscious was so that the killer could reload the weapon. The killer needed two hands to reload the magazine and Nevill could have taken the weapon as it sat. Nevill's arms were struck a dozen times or more. Several times you absurdly suggested Sheila beat his arms while he was unconscious.  These suggestions just help to betray how you are guided solely by bias and just making up nonsense to try to pretend Sheila did it.  If Nevill passed out the killer would simply have reloaded then shot him not beat his body as he was passed out, certainly not beat his harms tearing his watch off.

That Nevill would eventually have bled to death in no way suggests he passed out upon reaching the kitchen precluding a struggle.  You make up such things out of desperation and it doesn';t help your image at all when you do such.

According to DC Hammersley's trial testimony anything of evidential value was removed from the main bed:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=223;image

The blood stained capet samples and blue socks taken from the main bedroom and tested were said to originate from June based on her A blood grouping and the nature of her injuries.

The blood stained carpet fibres taken from the landing and tested were inconclusive,

He said he took what he thought was important.  He didn't think the quilt was important so didn't take it.  There are no records that reflect the quilt was collected let alone any that shot it being sent to the lab.  Since it was not examined by the lab you have no basis to say it definitely had no blood. We don't know what evidence may have been present on it because it was never examined.

June had injuries that resulted in her dripping a great deal of blood as she moved around.  She also had been lying in bed when shot and thus her bleeding wound came into direct contact with the bed.  In contrast none of Nevill's wounds caused him to be dripping blood extensively and none of his wounds came into direct contact with the bed because he was not lying down when shot.  You want to pretend that Nevill would have to have bled int he bedroom though that is not the case at all.  In the meantime you ignore that they didn't test all the blood drops from the carpet they cut out some of those drops they did not test could have been from Nevill.  Some of the carpet int he bedroom that they left behind had blood as well thus it wa snot tested and could have been Nevill's. Since Nevill only dripped a single drop her or there as he was moving about that means if he dropped only  a very small number of drops int he bedroom they would need to test them all to find them.

The casings associated with the 4 shots as well as the billet that grazed Nevill were all inside the bedroom and the only way that is possible is if he were shot in there or someone moved them from a different room and planted them.  You have no evidence of anyone moving them and planting them.

I've only ever claimed NB was shot on the landing and in the kitchen.  I don't know where you get the hall from?  Maybe in the US you refer to the corridor upstairs as a hall.  In the UK we refer to the corridor upstairs as a landing and corridor downstairs as a hall.  Not always a corridor but the area the main rooms lead off of.

Landings are those portions of hallways directly adjacent to stairs. Your claims of him being shot on a landing or on the stairs are impossible for the reasons stated above.  You never address the problems I raised you just maintain the same refuted claims in the ultimate effort to live in denial.

There's no evidence of any of NB's blood in the bedroom.  I've previously pointed out that doesn't mean there wasn't any.  The blood on the landing was inconclusive and blood on the stairs was not tested.  Blood on wallpater by the kitchen/hall entrance was shown to originate from NB based on his O blood grouping.  Blood drips on the kitchen floor were not tested but it seems likely they originated from NB.

On the contrary you have gone to great lengths to say they tested all the blood int he bedroom and none was Nevill's this is the first time you are conceding his blood may have been there but wasn't discovered. There is no doubt Nevill went from the bedroom down to the kitchen after being shot. He walked into the hall towards Sheila's room but then decided to go down the stairs to the kitchen instead of going into her room.  Whether it was to chase Jeremy or he was being chased is not known for sure but more likely is that he was pursuing Jeremy because Jeremy would have been beating him before he got into the kitchen the struggle would have been on the stairs and halls instead.  More likely is he pursued Jeremy and prevented him from reloading.

The blood in the kitchen had to be Nevill's it was near his body and in such quantity that where else could it come from?  The killer didn't get that much blood on them from another victim and transfer it to the kitchen. That is why they didn't even need to test it the circumstances showed quite clearly who it belonged to.  The same is true of the blood pool that was near Sheila's body and blood pool near June. 

The facial shots NB sustained upstairs produced substantial external blood loss as the regions injured contained a rich blood supply.  There's no evidence of his blood in the main bedroom which might be expected from these wounds. 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=726

There is no evidence that suggests his lip wound and jaw wound caused significant external blood loss. Evidence they cause significant external blood loss would be evidence he dripped extensive amounts of blood everywhere he walked.  He dripped very little blood in the hallways and even kitchen. The main blood stain of his outside the kitchen was caused by his bloody shoulder area of his pajamas hitting the side of the wall.   Jaw wounds of that nature result more internal bleeding than external. This is a perfect example of you ignoring the evidence and making up what you wish instead of following the evidence where it leads.  If he leaked a lot of blood in the halls and down the stairs then you can say evidence established he was bleeding extensively from his lip/jaw wounds.  But that is not the case at all.

The other points you raise re bullet casings etc are here:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6883.msg293857#msg293857

In that thread I thoroughly refuted your claims.  I posted an illustration of where the casings would land while shooting at Nevill on his side of the bed. also I discussed how it would not be possible to shoot Nevill from the bedroom if he were on the stairs. You never addressed any of these problems.

You recognize that Sheila shooting both parents in the bedroom precludes Jeremey's claim of receiving a phone call and are desperate to pretend it didn't happen.

[John]

I stand by my claims in this thread that the four gunshot wounds NB sustained upstairs happened on the landing.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6883.msg293857#msg293857

Had that been the case Holly the bullet casings would not have been found in the bedroom.

[Holly Goodhead]

Had that been the case Holly the bullet casings would not have been found in the bedroom.

Actually I made a mistake in post above.  I should have said twice on the landing and twice on the stairs.

They were not all in the bedroom.  One was on the transition strip and another on the landing.

[scipio_usmc]

Actually I made a mistake in post above.  I should have said twice on the landing and twice on the stairs.

They were not all in the bedroom.  One was on the transition strip and another on the landing.

Someone firing at someone on the stairs would result in the ejection port being to the right towards Sheila's room not near the master bedroom.  The shot on the transition strip was from shooting June.

The casings stuck in the corner on the landing was transferred from the kitchen.