Neville Bamber and Teddy bear in master bedroom

[scipio_usmc]

The autopsy report for June states fragments were recovered in respect of GSW 2.  It makes no reference to any bullet.  Fragments and a bullet were recovered in respect of GSW1.  It seems to me the bullets found in June's pillow are more likely to pertain to the GSW's she sustained to her ear/head and neck whilst her head was on the pillow as opposed to her forearm.  It's possible fragments lodged internally with the rest of the bullet exiting.  I will have to look at the weights again.  I can't remember.  Must be my age/hormones 

How is it possible to say for certain which exited bullets pertain to which wounds?  Dr Vanezis states he didn't know the sequence of shots.

PV/5 is the only fragment Vanezis recovered which was not a unique bullet fragment.  It was a small portion of the bullet fired into Nevill's lip or jaw. It's the only tiny fragment he wasted time to recover and label as an exhibit.  All other bullet fragments he recovered were the largest remaining fragment from such bullet.

Fletcher's report helps detail what body parts they were recovered from.  That in conjunction with the autopsy report is what I used to piece together what I posted. The level of detail with the twins is insufficient because he didn't number those wounds and give enough detail to match them precisely to each wound. You can only do totals, especially since he recovered nothing at all from one bullet.

Autopsy quotes:

1) "recovered from base of left side of skull"
2) "recovered from the left side of the base of the skull"
3) bullet exited thus no bullet recovered
4) bullet exited thus no bullet recovered
5) "bullet was recovered from between T3 and T4"
6) "lower aspect of the body of T9, from where the bullet was recovered"
7) bullet exited thus no bullet was recovered

So according to his autopsy report he recovered bullets from 4 wounds while 3 exited and were not recovered.

His November report which details his exhibit list identifies the 4 bullet exhibits he recovered from June and it is sufficiently detailed to be able to figure out which bullet goes to which wound without even needing to consult Fletcher's report:



There were only 3 bullets not recovered from her body. One entered the bed after exiting her knee.  The other 2 ended up in her pillow.  The 4th bullet in the bedroom was associated with Nevill's graze wound.   

[david1819]

That photo is too far and has the quilt bunched up too boot. I posted the photo that shows the quilt more closely than any other and there are what appear ot be blood stains. They look just like the blood staining in the photos of June's side close up.

There is no way anyone was shot on that side of the bed. If that was the case the blood would be all over it, like June's side

[Admin]

The presence or otherwise of blood on Nevill's pillow or on his side of the bed would be an indicator as to when he was first shot.  Is there any evidence of this?

[scipio_usmc]

Oh come on! Blood is seen coming from Sheila's mouth and on her nightie...of course her blood is in the bedroom. You prefer to blame the lose of blood from NB in the bedroom being because... as you state ...only 2 of the carpet samples were tested. I can clearly see June's pillow covered in blood, and Neville's without any! I therefore query the fact that NB was actually in bed.....carpet samples checked or not.

There is no requirement that blood drip off a victim's clothing or body onto the floor. Nevill could have bled on his pajamas and not the bedding or the floor period in the room where he was shot in the face and jaw.  Show me where experts said that blood would have to leak on the floor as opposed to his clothing.  Did you ever bleed from the mouth?  I have and ruined plenty of shirts that is what gets hit the most though pants do get some as well.

In any event he could have sat there dripping blood on the quilt. Police say the quilt had blood but never detail or document where every drop of blood was and destroyed it so it can never be known.  The blood on June's pillow got there by her head being shot while it was against the pillow and her head continuing to be against the pillow as it was bleeding.  The blood on the sheets got there from her bleeding exit wounds touching the sheets.  Nevill wasn't hit in any area of his head that would touch the pillow and transfer blood even if he had been lying down when shot.  He suffered no exit wounds thus had no exit wounds that would be touching the sheet.  In sum he had no wounds like June suffered that would be able to leave blood on the sheets and pillows.  It is totally unrealistic to require bloodstains on the pillow and bottom sheets wen he suffered no wounds of a nature to leave such stains.

The only blood stains his wounds could leave would be dripping onto the quilt. You have no basis to say his blood wasn't on the quilt.  They said the quilt was bloody but failed to document where all such blood was , failed to test it and destroyed it.   

No floor in the house not even the kitchen floor had any sign of significant blood dripping from Nevill's mouth to the floor immediately after being shot in the lip and jaw. The only significant bleeding on the kitchen floor got there after his body was in the position in which it was found and gravity went to work in draining him yet it is impossible for him to have been shot to the left side of his face and jaw while in such position because his left side was hidden by the wall.

You keep insisting there had to be extensive blood from his lip and jaw room where he was shot yet can't point to any such extensive blood anywhere.

 
   

[scipio_usmc]

There is no way anyone was shot on that side of the bed. If that was the case the blood would be all over it, like June's side

June's side has limited blood on the quilt most of the blood is on the pillows and sheet and that blood got on the sheet from her exit wounds and on the pillow from a wound that was touching the pillow.  Nevill had no exit wounds to bleed against the bedsheet from and no head wound that would be touching his pillow.

The blood on June's side of the quilt is not nearly was extensive as the blood on the sheets and pillow.  Neivll didn't have to get that much if any blood on the quilt. Getting shot as he was getting out of bed would result in him mainly bleeding on his clothing. In any event there appears to be blood on his side of the quilt.  The closeups I showed feature dark red stains that look like the blood on June's side not the pattern of the quilt.  You have no proof that his side lacked blood you just speculate such.  Such speculation means nothing.  In order to be able to argue there was no blood on the quilt you need proof and speculation is not proof.

The police said there was blood on it so they destroyed it.  They failed to detail/document where all the blood was before destroying it.  Speculation that there was no blood on Nevill's side is meaningless and has no ability to contradict the location of the casings and bullet that grazed Nevill as well as the trajectory of the shots all of which correspond to Nevill being shot on his bed as he was sitting or in the process of rising.

 

[Holly Goodhead]

PV/5 is the only fragment Vanezis recovered which was not a unique bullet fragment.  It was a small portion of the bullet fired into Nevill's lip or jaw. It's the only tiny fragment he wasted time to recover and label as an exhibit.  All other bullet fragments he recovered were the largest remaining fragment from such bullet.

Fletcher's report helps detail what body parts they were recovered from.  That in conjunction with the autopsy report is what I used to piece together what I posted. The level of detail with the twins is insufficient because he didn't number those wounds and give enough detail to match them precisely to each wound. You can only do totals, especially since he recovered nothing at all from one bullet.

Autopsy quotes:

1) "recovered from base of left side of skull"
2) "recovered from the left side of the base of the skull"
3) bullet exited thus no bullet recovered
4) bullet exited thus no bullet recovered
5) "bullet was recovered from between T3 and T4"
6) "lower aspect of the body of T9, from where the bullet was recovered"
7) bullet exited thus no bullet was recovered

So according to his autopsy report he recovered bullets from 4 wounds while 3 exited and were not recovered.

His November report which details his exhibit list identifies the 4 bullet exhibits he recovered from June and it is sufficiently detailed to be able to figure out which bullet goes to which wound without even needing to consult Fletcher's report:



There were only 3 bullets not recovered from her body. One entered the bed after exiting her knee.  The other 2 ended up in her pillow.  The 4th bullet in the bedroom was associated with Nevill's graze wound.

Thanks Scipio.  I'll have to take myself off to a darkened room and get back to you.

[scipio_usmc]

The presence or otherwise of blood on Nevill's pillow or on his side of the bed would be an indicator as to when he was first shot.  Is there any evidence of this?

None of his wounds were of a nature that would transfer blood to his pillow or the bottom sheet. The only way to transfer blood to the bottom sheet from a wound would be for someone to have exit wounds or to roll over so that an entrance wound is touching the bottom sheet.  The same is true of a pillow. The wound would need to exit in a location near the pillow or the entrance wound touching the pillow.  June suffered exit wounds and a head wound near the pillow but Nevill didn't.

The only bleeding Nevill could do would be to have blood leak on the quilt as he was sitting up but that is only if the quilt were right under his wound covering up his legs/crotch. Possibly some small drops could have gotten on the top sheet or bottom sheet.

Police destroyed the quilt because it was covered in blood.  They never documented where all such blood was on the quilt. So we have no way to know how much blood if any was on Nevill's side.  Similarly they destroyed the top sheet and Nevill's pillows without documenting anything. They actually took the bottom sheet into evidence but failed to test any of the blood on it and failed to document whether there were any small drips on Nevill's side.  The photos taken of the bottom bedsheet are from a distance that they would not capture small drips on Nevill's side.

The only photo that shows any of Nevill's side of the quilt relatively close is this one (left side) and it appears to have blood:



For comparison here is a close up of June's side which has blood you can see how the blood is darker than the background pattern

[scipio_usmc]

Thanks Scipio.  I'll have to take myself off to a darkened room and get back to you.

My cheat sheet about the bullets is fully accurate for the adults. The only unknown is whether tiny PV/5 was from Nevill's lip or jaw wound but it makes no material difference anyway which is why I usually don't even mention it.  Some people become confused thinking it means Nevill was shot 9 times.

What I pieced together for the boys is accurate but as noted we can't match specific bullets to specific wounds for them (other than the bullet that exited which makes it a "no duh" assessment) . Vanezis didn't do a good enough job to enable us to know with the ones he removed. The bullets and wounds were all so close together that you would need really good descriptions from the ME.

I think I even posted in my cheatsheet which bullets were matched to the Anschutz and which were not. Obviously the one never recovered from the body wasn't matched. This one is usually never referenced in such assessment though it should be hence I did.

 

[John]

The way I see it is this.

Jeremy Bamber knew how to get into the farmhouse undetected.  If our house dog is anything to go by (she barks at everything) I believe Crispy probably alerted to someone on the stairs..  Nevill meantime would get up and make for the door.  Door opens, gunman shoots!

[scipio_usmc]

The way I see it is this.

Jeremy Bamber knew how to get into the farmhouse undetected.  If our house dog is anything to go by (she barks at everything) I believe Crispy probably alerted to someone on the stairs..  Nevill meantime would get up and make for the door.  Door opens, gunman shoots!

How could the casings get behind the door and on the bed from someone shooting while standing in the hallway or even in the doorway itself?  The would bounce off the hall wall down the stairs.

The only way to get behind the door would be by shooting at someone who is in the bed.  8 of the 11 casings were on the bed or June's side of the bed behind the door.   

 

[Admin]

How could the casings get behind the door and on the bed from someone shooting while standing in the hallway or even in the doorway itself?  The would bounce off the hall wall down the stairs.

The only way to get behind the door would be by shooting at someone who is in the bed.  8 of the 11 casings were on the bed or June's side of the bed behind the door.   

 

Yes, the shooter had to have entered the bedroom.

[Opal]

Does anyone know if Neville Bamber wore glasses? I seem to remember seeing a photo of Neville B and Jeremy B ( when JB was young) standing by a tractor...NB having glasses on....it's now bugging me!

[Myster]

Does anyone know if Neville Bamber wore glasses? I seem to remember seeing a photo of Neville B and Jeremy B ( when JB was young) standing by a tractor...NB having glasses on....it's now bugging me!

I believe he did, for close work, reading, etc.... but why ask?

[Opal]

Thanks Myster.

I asked because looking at the main bedroom 'LAMP' photo where the telephone was moved from, I feel sure there is a pair of glasses on the bedside table! It only shows the arms of the glasses, and they look very light. They look as though they have been placed there by someone that side of the bed. If they are glasses then in all probability NB was in bed.

[Myster]

Thanks Myster.

I asked because looking at the main bedroom 'LAMP' photo where the telephone was moved from, I feel sure there is a pair of glasses on the bedside table! It only shows the arms of the glasses, and they look very light. They look as though they have been placed there by someone that side of the bed. If they are glasses then in all probability NB was in bed.

Aaah, I see.  Yes, there does seem to be a pair of glasses with translucent frames? to the right, and also a pair of headphones? again with a white or translucent headband to the left.  You can just make out the dark foam earpieces. Maybe these were used with the clock-radio on the shelf above?