Neville Bamber and Teddy bear in master bedroom

[adam]

There is no proof whatsoever the burn marks, if that's what they are, were produced by the rifle. What sort of idiot assassin would waste time heating up the end in the AGA and branding Nevill purely to inflict some sadistic revenge, or even to test if he was dead?... the four bullets to his head were confirmation of that. This was just another misleading ruse created by Bamber's lawyer and supporters to get him released.

What were the burn marks from then ? Even Bamber's experts say they are from the rifle without the silencer on.

I don't believe Bamber did this to Neville to be sadistic. He had already been sadistic enough in shooting him upstairs and brutally beating him downstairs. He did it to check for signs of life. Maybe before he fired the kitchen shots into him.

Why didn't he do the same with everyone else ? Thread already on the Blue forum.

[Myster]

What were the burn marks from then ? Even Bamber's experts say they are from the rifle without the silencer on.

I don't believe Bamber did this to Neville to be sadistic. He had already been sadistic enough in shooting him upstairs and brutally beating him downstairs. He did it to check for signs of life. Maybe before he fired the kitchen shots into him.

Why didn't he do the same with everyone else ? Thread already on the Blue forum.

We've no idea how the burn marks originated, Adam, and it's pointless trying to speculate anymore, since the Appeal Court have rejected the CT's crazy theory.

You select an "expert" with some bias towards your cause and pay him what you want him to say, as in the polygraph test.

The quickest way to ensure there was no sign of life was not to mess around heating up a rifle for god knows how long, but to fire more shots into the victim. Besides, he had to return upstairs asap and deal with Sheila and the boys.

[adam]

We've no idea how the burn marks originated, Adam, and it's pointless trying to speculate anymore, since the Appeal Court have rejected the CT's crazy theory.

You select an "expert" with some bias towards your cause and pay him what you want him to say, as in the polygraph test.

The quickest way to ensure there was no sign of life was not to mess around heating up a rifle for god knows how long, but to fire more shots into the victim. Besides, he had to return upstairs asap and deal with Sheila and the boys.

That's right, we've no idea. Well I have an idea. Which is the only logical one.

Neville sure didn't accidentially burn his own back. Three times in the same location.  I wonder who did then ?

Bamber certainly burned Neville's back after going back upstairs to shoot everyone else. Sheila's blood was on the silencer.  Maybe Neville was still alive in the kitchen and had moved slightly. Bamber deciding to shoot him again and check for signs of life with the rifle, when returning downstairs.

Neville was in the perfect postion for Bamber to burn his back.

[Myster]

I should have said the High Court of Justice, where there was a judicial review of the CCRC's decision not to refer to the Court of Appeal.

Regarding the burn marks in the 2012 judgement:

This issue is not dealt with by the Commission, but I think it would be helpful to express a short view.  There was in the kitchen an AGA.  The mechanism that Mr Boyce suggests must imply the placing of the rifle barrel on a hot plate of the AGA, and by the hot plate of the AGA I mean that part that is normally used for cooking and which when it is not used for cooking can be covered by a lid.  An AGA is not constructed so if a gun is leant against it, it will heat the barrel up.  As Mr Boyce makes clear, it would have to be on the hot plate.  It seems to me that if that further evidence had been before the Commission, although it would be a matter for them, it would seem very improbable that a barrel would have been heated in that way.

[Holly Goodhead]

I should have said the High Court of Justice, where there was a judicial review of the CCRC's decision not to refer to the Court of Appeal.

Regarding the burn marks in the 2012 judgement:

This issue is not dealt with by the Commission, but I think it would be helpful to express a short view.  There was in the kitchen an AGA.  The mechanism that Mr Boyce suggests must imply the placing of the rifle barrel on a hot plate of the AGA, and by the hot plate of the AGA I mean that part that is normally used for cooking and which when it is not used for cooking can be covered by a lid.  An AGA is not constructed so if a gun is leant against it, it will heat the barrel up.  As Mr Boyce makes clear, it would have to be on the hot plate.  It seems to me that if that further evidence had been before the Commission, although it would be a matter for them, it would seem very improbable that a barrel would have been heated in that way.

There's a reason we have wooden spoons for stirring when cooking and it isn't just so we don't scratch the inside of the pan with a metal spoon.  A metal spoon will heat up very quickly and transfer heat to the hand.  If someone attempted to heat the rifle in or on the Aga would the wooden stock prevent the heat travelling to the persons hand?

I just can't see JB or SC heating the rifle to then apply to NB to check for life.

[adam]

42. The examination of Nevill Bamber's body also revealed black eyes and a broken nose, linear bruising to the cheeks, lacerations to the head, linear type bruising to the right forearm, bruising to the left wrist and forearm and three circular burn type marks to the back. The linear marks were consistent with Mr Bamber having been struck with a long blunt object, possibly a gun.

The 2002 COA judgement said they were burn marks.

[Holly Goodhead]

It is at odds with the pathological evidence for additional reasons and worse it is absurd. It is absurd to suggest that Jeremy would let Nevill escape without firing the final shot at him and to leave Nevill alone for several minutes to use the phone or load a shotgun so that Jeremy could grab Sheila and drag her to the bedroom to shoot her as June is still there walking around. 

Not to defend Fletcher since absurd is absurd regardless of passage of time, but after nearly 30 years Fletcher didn't remember the evidence anymore. The Director of Prosecution was not an expert and simply ignorant all the way around.

What I did was to take into account all the evidence. You are busy trashing claims that you admit are wrong instead of dealing with the points I made which was well supported and based on the totality of the evidence. 

The evidence shows the shooter was at the foot of the bed firing at June's right side and Nevill's left. Nevill suffered 4 shots to his left and June 6 to her right. The ten casings associated with these shots were in the bedroom where they would be expected to be based on a shooter being in such position shooting at them.

The 2 parents were the greatest threat hence why they were to be killed first.

His plan of killing them easily didn't work out. Both got up out of bed and after the weapon was empty either either went to try to disarm him with him running away to try to reload or somehow managed to fight past him to get out of the room.  Nevill didn't bleed on the phone so he never got to the phone nor did he manage to get to a shotgun. Either Jeremy was in close pursuit and caught him in the kitchen or Nevill was in close pursuit and caught Jeremy in the kitchen.  Nevill was bashed unconscious so Jeremy could reload safely then he shot Nevill 4 times more. Then he reloaded the magazine fully and went upstairs and fired 8 shots into the boys, 2 into sheila and June in unknown order.

While it has been documented that even after 4 plus shots drawback can still remain in a weapon it is rather unlikely that there would still be the amount of blood near the opening that was present had a sizable number of shots been fired after sheila was killed.  Thus in all likelihood sheila was shot last.  If it could be determined Sheila died before the boys this could ruin him getting the full inheritance and even worse could ruin his efforts to pretend Sheila was the killer.  In addition to such considerations it makes more sense to kill the boys and then deal with sheila so they don't have a chance to wake up and escape if she screams. Whether he shot June between the eyes before or after the boys there is simply no way to know. It is just as logical that such was done after killing the boys as before and the physical evidence shed's no light either. 

Jeremy goes upstairs, checks to make sure June is dead and fires one between her eyes to make sure then goes to kill the boys and then goes to get sheila..

Jeremy goes upstairs and kills the boys then thinks June is still breathing so fires a shot between her eyes then goes to get sheila.

Neither scenario is substantially more likely than the other.
 
It's not impossible that there was substantially more blood in the moderator and that 8-9 shots were fired after Sheila was killed and thus the amount of blood was reduced by the additional shots causing some of the blood to exit but I still think it unlikely there would be blood right inside the opening if that were the case. So in all likelihood based on everything Sheila was shot last.

Although I don't believe JB was the perp, I agree with what you say in terms of if he was then not only is The Director of Public Prosecutions ignoring the pathological evidence but it makes no sense for JB to shoot SC allowing NB valuable time to arm himself and/or summon help.

I believe the reason DPP and Malcolm Fletcher have put forward this scenario is that without it they are left with what was SC doing when JB was in the kitchen beating and shooting NB.

[Angelo222]

If you speak with farmers I think you will find that most of the above are everyday occurrences and nothing out of the ordinary.

If he didn't use the rifle as he said he did what possible advantage was there in saying it?  For those who think JB is guilty I could see an advantage if the firearms and ammo were stored securely but given they were accessible to anyone inside the property then I really struggle to see the point. 

The same applies to the fact he claims he left the rifle out.  It seems obvious to me NB would return it to the den/gun cupboard.  If JB said he left after everyone was in bed and he left the rifle out then this potentially would be different.

I find it very hard to believe that Jeremy Bamber would have either the time or the inclination to want to bother with a couple of bunnies after an exhausting day on the farm at harvest time.  His sister and her twin sons were there, was he not in the least interested in them?

He planned these murders to the last detail and has spent the last 31 years behind bars regretting it and making excuses.

[Holly Goodhead]

42. The examination of Nevill Bamber's body also revealed black eyes and a broken nose, linear bruising to the cheeks, lacerations to the head, linear type bruising to the right forearm, bruising to the left wrist and forearm and three circular burn type marks to the back. The linear marks were consistent with Mr Bamber having been struck with a long blunt object, possibly a gun.

The 2002 COA judgement said they were burn marks.

IMO the whole case from investigation to its present status has been very poorly managed. No proper oversight, appaling communication and many simply grossly incompetent. 

The fact the 2002 judgement refers to the marks as burns doesn't fill me with confidence.  It is a doc I tend to quote from as you like to think its accurate but Scipio has highlighted a number of inaccuracies.

For example lets take the above where it refers to NB sustaining black eyes, is this due to bruising from his GSW's or the perp punching him with a fist or some instrument?  When dealing with technical matters experts need to make themselves clear.

[Holly Goodhead]

I find it very hard to believe that Jeremy Bamber would have either the time or the inclination to want to bother with a couple of bunnies after an exhausting day on the farm at harvest time.  His sister and her twin sons were there, was he not in the least interested in them?

He planned these murders to the last detail and has spent the last 31 years behind bars regretting it and making excuses.

He didn't have the time or inclination to deal with a couple of bunnies "after an exhausting day on the farm at harvest time" and yet stayed up all night, made a round trip from GH to WHF by bike and murdered 5 members of his family?

[Angelo222]

He didn't have the time or inclination to deal with a couple of bunnies "after an exhausting day on the farm at harvest time" and yet stayed up all night, made a round trip from GH to WHF by bike and murdered 5 members of his family?

There was greater benefit in the latter Holly.

[Myster]

Yea... the most he would have got was a boiled bunny, whereas he ended up being shopped by a bunny boiler.

Likes gratefully accepted. 

[adam]

It is surprising he went for supper. He had already seen Sheila and the twins. The twins would be in bed at that time anyway. He would have seen Neville on the farm. Maybe he went to see June, who he hated.  Although he did recently claim he was a 'mummies boy'.

Being tired, not living at WHF, already assisting his parents for several hours that day on the farm, not liking his parents, it being dark or getting dark will have all contributed to Bamber not going out to shoot rabbits. Besides which he was hungry and had gone to WHF 'for supper'.

[adam]

Some people say Bamber should not have rang the police. However he would be first on the farm in the morning for work. Just as importantly he was the last person to leave WHF after his 'supper'.

[Holly Goodhead]

There was greater benefit in the latter Holly.

Yes I often find I can overcome tiredness if the incentives are right