Neville Bamber and Teddy bear in master bedroom

[Holly Goodhead]

Definately not Holly and there is NO EVIDENCE she committed any murder.

I agree with your opening remarks however, June and Nevill wanted to bring the twins back to the farm and reintegrate them into the community.  They were old enough by that stage, no longer babies and easier coped with.  Having the twins back would have suited Sheila on so many levels and still allowed her time to do what she liked best. I don't think Colin would have had a leg to stand on, with June and Nevill's support Sheila could have regained custody.

Jeremy could see his inheritance slowly dwindling, the twins could have inherited the lot, they had to go.

I'm not sure.  It would be down to the courts to decide.  CC sounds adamant in his letter about putting the welfare of the twins first.  What caring parent wouldn't?  In his eyes SC and June were both having a detrimental effect on the twins.  The courts would take all sorts into consideration including June's and SC's long history of serious mental illness.  This would not have boded well for SC and/or the Bambers with the courts.

[Myster]

This was taken by the police/forensics around 2000 when they ripped up the carpets trying to get a sample of Sheila's DNA. As you can see the equipment is on the bed and the carpets have been ripped off the floor

You're right... on Fujicolor NPH400 Pro film.  A Polaroid camera also on the bed (looks like an "Image SE or 2") with some instant photos already taken, swabs, roll of sticky tape, packet of neoprene forensic gloves? and a booklet with an official-looking logo.

[scipio_usmc]

Scipio, is the excerpt you've posted from something post trial eg COLP?  It states that although the items would not have been destroyed if the murders were by an unknown person "no further evidence would have been forthcoming had they been retained".

DC Hammersley's trial testimony states he removed everything of evidential value from the bed in the main bedroom.

No officer observed any blood on the bedding NB's side.

It is from the Dickinson Report.  The Report noted how they destroyed most of the bedding within days and says while such was against protocol it ultimately would not have contained any physical evidence from the killer thus doesn't matter.

No officer was asked to record in documents whether they observed blood on Nevill's side. The only bedding taken into evidence was: 1) the bottom sheet of the bed, 2) June's pillows. Everything else was destroyed. They never did any testing on the sheet or pillows. Thus Dickinson felt they would not have done any testing on any of the other bedding either had they retained it and there is no reason to believe Jeremy's blood was on it so no reason to believe testing of the bedding would have helped establish his guilt.

The police felt the casings and bullet that grazed Nevill proved he was shot in the bedroom. They saw no need to try using blood evidence to establish it. Prior or at trial no one questioned that Nevill was shot in the bedroom based on a claim there was a lack of blood on the bed and floor on Nevill's side thus there was no need to ask police about the blood on his side of the bed. How much they would remember is questionable anyway given they paid such little mind to the bedding.  The police never mention blood on June's side of the quilt either.  They didn't mention it because they thought it was of no investigative value which is also why they destroyed it. the fact they don't mention it doesn't mean it wasn't there we can see there is blood on her side of the quilt

Subsequent to the convictions is when blood experts were asked to assess photos of the bedding and thus when blood experts paid attention to the bedding. Photos show blood on the pillow and bottom sheet of June's bed but there are no photos that were taken of the sheets on Nevill's side. The only photos of his side were with the quilt blocking view of the sheets and most of these were taken at a distance the only one close up is a photo of Sheila which happens to include a portion of the quilt and it looks like there is blood on the quilt in that photo. The blood experts didn't say anything about the blood on the quilt on June's side of the bed because it told them little. What they paid attention to was blood on the pillow that got there by her bleeding head touching the pillow- which means she was shot in the head while lying down in bed not in the process of getting out of bed- and the bottom sheet had transfer marks showing her bleeding exit wounds were touching the sheet. There were no similar pictures taken of Nevill's sheets to analyze though he suffered no exit wounds that could cause the kinds of transfer stains they were looking to assess anyway.  Nor did he suffer a head wound in a location that would allow transfer of blood to his pillow even if he had been lying down when shot.

   

[Myster]

I was thinking of this photo but now I've checked it out I think it's a replica of what you have posted from another angle:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5594.msg198779#msg198779

Does it look like NB left his bed in a hurry?  I guess it's like most of the soc photos down to interpretation!

It does show how perilously close the bible was to the opened box room door and how it could quite easily have been moved.

No, David is correct... see above.

[Opal]

You say you are following Vanezis but Vanezis believed that the first 4 wounds Nevill suffered were wounds 5-8 and that these were delivered upstairs while wounds 1-4 were delivered in the kitchen after Nevill had already had stopped struggling.   My post shows that I knew the first 4 shots were fired downstairs.

What you just quoted failed to refute the points I made.  What you just quoted makes clear Nevill was shot before he entered the kitchen because his blood was against the hall wall and it got there from him bumping into the wall before he entered the kitchen.  You fail to address the bullet that grazed Nevill being in the bedroom and the location of the casings in the bedroom as well.  I did! Look at the end of my post where I say that I agree 2 shots could have been fired in the bedroom..numbered  7 -8 Vanezis didn't suggest that either of these wounds would result in extensive external bleeding. Thus you fail to post any argument of any kind to justify viewing them as not having occurred in the bedroom.  NO, because I agreed they probably were!

You completely ignored my point that they failed to test most of the blood in the bedroom.  Vanezis simply reiterated that the limited blood they did test belonged to June. By your standard Sheila can't have been killed in the bedroom because none of the blood they tested was hers. Obviously this is not a valid standard. Oh come on! Blood is seen coming from Sheila's mouth and on her nightie...of course her blood is in the bedroom. You prefer to blame the lose of blood from NB in the bedroom being because... as you state ...only 2 of the carpet samples were tested. I can clearly see June's pillow covered in blood, and Neville's without any! I therefore query the fact that NB was actually in bed.....carpet samples checked or not.


A majority of blood from a lip and jaw wound would actually be internal not external. That which would be external wound not need to land on the floor. The majority of blood that drips from a face lands on clothing.  No where did Vanezis suggest Neville would have to have dripped extensive amounts of blood on the floor. I agreed that NB could have been shot twice in bedroom... bottom of my post..shots 7-8 It's the 5th and 6th shots that concern me...if NB was shot 4 times it wasn't in bed!

Did the hall Nevill walked through while bleeding have any blood on the floor noted let alone a lot of blood?  Did the kitchen have a lot of blood anywhere other than what pooled after Nevill died?  No.  My point exactly! If neville was shot 4 times upstairs 2 of which would have bled profusely where is the blood on the stairs etc?

Could Nevill have been shot on the left side after he was knocked out?  No because his right side was exposed not his left.

Nevill was shot 4 times in the bedroom and June shot 6 and then the gun was empty.  The gun being empty without Neville being disabled is the only reason the struggle in the kitchen took place. I also believe a struggle took place in the kitchen, I just have a problem with the 4 shots in the bedroom....and before you say...I know 13 casings were found in the bedroom.  This is the view that was advanced at trial and to this day is the only scenario that accounts for the struggle in the kitchen, location of the spent cases and bullets as well as trajectory of the wounds. Only 3 casings found in kitchen.

While Nevill didn't have to bleed in the bedroom he probably did.  They did not test all or even most of the blood that was on the bedroom carpet. They only cut out 2 squares from the carpet and tested 5 drops in each square.  They failed to seize all blood that had been on the carpet thus could not test it all.  I don't deny NB could have bled in the bedroom, having been shot twice, but the 5-6 shots would have caused a lot of blood

Nevill's side of the quilt has what looks like blood on it.  while some people suggest it is just the pattern of the comforter, it looks a lot more red than the background pattern and doesn't seem to match the background pattern it looks like the blood that was observed on June's side of the comforter. Exactly, June's blood. I believe if it is blood, then it's June's.

This comforter was not collected as evidence by police it was left behind and when police agreed to clean the place up of anything with blood they burned it along with other blood stained items.  Thus the lab was unable to test whose blood was on it:  You are surmising  that although there is no blood on NB's side of the bed/pillow the quilt had NB's blood on it.

[Holly Goodhead]

No, David is correct... see above.

Yes David is correct is re the late nineties/early noughties photo but I retrieved the photo I was thinking about it just doesn't show what I thought it did!

[Holly Goodhead]

Only 3 bullets exited June, 4 were recovered from inside of her and 3 exited and were found in the bedroom. . How could all 4 bullets in the bedroom relate to June?  It is quite clear that DRH/5 relates to Nevill's graze wound.

I have repeatedly posted which bullets are associated which which wounds:

The largest bullet fragment associated with each wound in order of how the autopsy report refers to the wounds where possible:

Sheila
upper wound (chin) PV/19
lower wound (neck) PV/20

Nevill
1) PV/8 front of right ear/exit left ear but still in the body
2) PV/9 slightly above wound 1
3) PV/3 top of skull
4) PV/4 top of skull
5) PV/10 (lip)         
6) PV/11 (jaw)
7)PV/2  (Shoulder)
8)DRH/5 (Arm/chest Graze wound)

June
1) PV/25 between eyes
2) PV/26 above right ear
3) DRH/35a lower neck (bullet exited into pillow)
4) DRH/35b forearm (bullet exited into pillow)
5) PV/24 right upper chest
6) PV/23 lower chest
7) DRH/9 knee (bullet exited into bed)

Daniel

There were 5 entrance wounds in an arc in the back of his head. The largest fragment from 4 bullets were recovered from his body, nearly all of the 5th bullet exited his body and was found in the room.  There was insufficient detail in the autopsy report to match the 5 bullet fragments to specific entry wounds.  The following 5 bullet fragments are each associated with an entry wound:

PV/34
PV/35
PV/36
PV/29
DRH/36 (bullet exited and landed in bedroom)

Nicholas
Left cheek bone
Left of bridge of the nose
Outer aspect of right eyebrow

Vanezis recovered the largest fragment from 2 of the 3 wounds PV/30 and PV/31 but he didn't detail which entrance wound each bullet fragment was associated with. The third bullet fragmented into small parts in the head and none of these fragments were removed during the autopsy so remained in the victim at burial.

The autopsy report for June states fragments were recovered in respect of GSW 2.  It makes no reference to any bullet.  Fragments and a bullet were recovered in respect of GSW1.  It seems to me the bullets found in June's pillow are more likely to pertain to the GSW's she sustained to her ear/head and neck whilst her head was on the pillow as opposed to her forearm.  It's possible fragments lodged internally with the rest of the bullet exiting.  I will have to look at the weights again.  I can't remember.  Must be my age/hormones 

How is it possible to say for certain which exited bullets pertain to which wounds?  Dr Vanezis states he didn't know the sequence of shots. 

[Caroline]

I can see any blood on Nevill's side - it just looks like the pattern.

[Holly Goodhead]

Members of the raid team did comment on the bedding in the main bedroom. 

PC Woodcock states one side of the bed was more dishevelled than the other and he was aware of blood on the bedding.  Other raid team members make reference to blood June's side but nothing NB's side.  This obviously doesn't mean there wasn't any just that none was observed.  In the absence of forensic analysis impossible to be certain. 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=166.0;attach=251

[david1819]

I can see any blood on Nevill's side - it just looks like the pattern.

I cant see any.

[Holly Goodhead]

Members of the raid team did comment on the bedding in the main bedroom. 

PC Woodcock states one side of the bed was more dishevelled than the other and he was aware of blood on the bedding.  Other raid team members make reference to blood June's side but nothing NB's side.  This obviously doesn't mean there wasn't any just that none was observed.  In the absence of forensic analysis impossible to be certain. 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=166.0;attach=251

PC Collins also makes ref to the covers pulled back and blood stains June's side.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=160.0;attach=6057

[Holly Goodhead]

Trail of NB's ? blood from bedroom:

- Main bedroom - none identified
- Landing - two tiny spots - tested but inconclusive results
- Stairs - according to AE's WS EP cleaned blood from stairs but not tested
- Hall - none identified on floor but a smear on the wall matching NB's 'O' antigen
- Kitchen - a "light distribution" was identified but not tested

I find it so odd that there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason as to what blood was tested.  Why test tiny spots on the landing carpet but not the blood that was removed by cleaning from the carpet on the stairs?

Why test the wallpaper but not the bible?

[scipio_usmc]

Members of the raid team did comment on the bedding in the main bedroom. 

PC Woodcock states one side of the bed was more dishevelled than the other and he was aware of blood on the bedding.  Other raid team members make reference to blood June's side but nothing NB's side.  This obviously doesn't mean there wasn't any just that none was observed.  In the absence of forensic analysis impossible to be certain. 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=166.0;attach=251

It doesn't say anything about blood on June's side it just said blood on the bedclothes.  It says the bedclothes were pulled down more on one side than the other simply.  Bedclothes seems to be what we call a quilt or comforter in America. Bedclothes would be thought to mean pajamas by us if not for the context.

My whole point is that we know there was blood on the quilt but since it was burned instead of examined and no detailed photos taken we have no idea as to the full extent. Thus one can't say it was blood free on Nevill's side that is just a guess people are making without any evidence to back it up.  Such speculation can't be used to refute the location of the bullet that grazed Nevill and shell casings. 

We similarly are in no position to know whether any of the blood on the rug that went untested was Nevill's.  They only tested blood that was at the foot of the bed not any of the blood on Nevill's side of the bed and only in 2 locations at the foot (the left and right side of the foot) and only 5 drops in each of these 2 swatches. Since they took such little interest in documenting all the blood and testing it we are in the dark as to how much blood was on the quilt, precisely where all blood on the quilt was and thus who all of it belonged to.     

[scipio_usmc]

I cant see any.

That photo is too far and has the quilt bunched up too boot. I posted the photo that shows the quilt more closely than any other and there are what appear ot be blood stains. They look just like the blood staining in the photos of June's side close up.

[scipio_usmc]

I find it so odd that there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason as to what blood was tested.  Why test tiny spots on the landing carpet but not the blood that was removed by cleaning from the carpet on the stairs?

Why test the wallpaper but not the bible?

Whose blood was on the Bible would not tell anything about who the killer was. They presumed it was Sheila's blood anyway since it was sitting in a pool of blood they figured had to be hers.

They tested blood in the hall to try to see movement which is the same reason they tested the blood at the foot of the bed and that dripped on the socks. The same with the hall wallpaper.