If Maddie may still be alive...what did the dog's alert to.

[Carana]

If you can be bothered to watch the video, the first item he gets all excited about is a tiny pair of blue shorts (before the red t-shirt).

For some strange reason, that didn't make the PJ's list.

[Robittybob1]

Not just female undies, then?

I didn't mean to be sexist, but I had discussed it with my female friend had it seemed possible to her.  So yes, I would think this is the reason they left the underwear out of these searches.  But it still doesn't explain why some items were alerted on.

[Robittybob1]

If you can be bothered to watch the video, the first item he gets all excited about is a tiny pair of blue shorts (before the red t-shirt).

For some strange reason, that didn't make the PJ's list.

I took that just to be air currents.

[Benice]

Don't get me started.

This was exactly the same clothing that, in the villa, Eddie could find no hint of a trace of an odour on.

Yet all those items were scooped up, bundled into bog-standard cardboard boxes (with zero regard to principles of cross-contamination, not that that mattered) and laid out a (second) time (in a different place), trampled all over (by both dogs) and one picked stuff up in his mouth and barked.

Hey-presto.

The lie of 'death-scent on Kate's clothes' was born.

Oh, and on Sean's tee-shirt.

IIRC it was claimed in the first instance that the tee-shirt belonged to Madeleine.    From memory but  I'm sure I've seen that claim made in statements listing the places/articles alerted to.

One cannot help seeing how very 'convenient'  that would have been to Amarals theory - if it was true.

I'm not sure whether that claim was every officially retracted.   If it was - I've missed it.

(must go out now)

[Robittybob1]

IIRC it was claimed in the first instance that the tee-shirt belonged to Madeleine.    From memory but  I'm sure I've seen that claim made in statements listing the places/articles alerted to.

One cannot help seeing how very 'convenient'  that would have been to Amarals theory - if it was true.

I'm not sure whether that claim was every officially retracted.   If it was - I've missed it.

(must go out now)

If they claimed to Kate that they found cadaver odour on Madeleine's top she would have immediately noted how wrong they were.  She must have known things weren't right when they told her that?

[ferryman]

Keela was directed to search the master bedroom, and found no traces of blood other than a drawer containing women’s underwear. Grime noted that isn’t uncommon because of the scent of menstrual blood.

http://loudounnow.com/2016/06/02/day-9-of-castillo-murder-trial-hones-in-on-phone-records/

???

'Taking into account the signals of CSI, could the dog alert to other biological fluids''

The dog that alerts to human blood is trained exclusively for this purpose, and includes its components, plasma, red cells, white cells and platelets. Given the nature of the training, the dog will not alert to urine, saliva, semen sweat, nasal secretion, vaginal secretion or human skin unless these are mixed with blood. The components of blood are approximately:
Red cells 40-50%

[Brietta]

Keela was directed to search the master bedroom, and found no traces of blood other than a drawer containing women’s underwear. Grime noted that isn’t uncommon because of the scent of menstrual blood.

http://loudounnow.com/2016/06/02/day-9-of-castillo-murder-trial-hones-in-on-phone-records/

Interesting.

Morse also reacted in the bedroom as noted by Martin Grime.
“As soon as the dog entered the bedroom, he exhibited behavioural changes.”
http://loudounnow.com/2016/06/02/day-9-of-castillo-murder-trial-hones-in-on-phone-records/

There are stringent rules re independent testing which allows dogs' evidence to be presented in American courts which Morse met and indeed exceeded.

**snip
At trial, FBI Canine Program Manager Rex Stockham testified as an expert in forensic canine operation. Stockham testified about the process of training and testing victim recovery dogs. Stockham's protocol called for regular single-and double-blind testing of dogs throughout their working lives. Stockham's program had three full-time handlers in its program, including Martin Grime. Stockham testified that he had tested Morse and Keela, Grime's dogs, and that both dogs had accuracy ratings in the high 90 percent range. Stockham testified that dogs have been able to smell the odor of decomposition as soon as 2 hours after a victim's death, or years after a victim's burial.
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/mi-court-of-appeals/1683760.html

According to Martin Grime, Keela alerted only to blood.  However, Eddie's training encompassed a wider spectrum of decomposition including human blood.

**snip
The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.

**snip
The dogs do not get confused. They transmit a behavioural response inspired by the recognition of the odour for which they were trained.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm


According to the handler it isn't considered unusual for the dog trained only to alert to blood to alert as in this case to a knicker drawer. I would presume the underwear therein had been laundered but was contaminated still, although not visible to the human eye or nose.

Why would it be strange or unusual for the VRD to react to scents it was trained to recognise?
Particularly in bedrooms where it would be possible for areas to be contaminated by bodily secretions such as semen to be recognised by the VRD but which is outside the parameters of the CSI trained only to blood.

[sadie]

No blood alert on the clothes so what do you think Eddie alerted to.......Persil?

Last night I re-watched the video of the dogs checking the clothes.

Keela was only shown the first few clothes and the last few shoes and clothes. 

Keela did NOT check the red tee-shirt.  She needed to do that in order for Eddies alert to point to cadavar Odour. 

Therefore the most likely scenario is that Eddie alerted to blood.

[Robittybob1]

Last night I re-watched the video of the dogs checking the clothes.

Keela was only shown the first few clothes and the last few shoes and clothes. 

Keela did NOT check the red tee-shirt.  She needed to do that in order for Eddies alert to point to cadavar Odour. 

Therefore the most likely scenario is that Eddie alerted to blood.

I agree you are correct in you two observations but I still think your conclusion is wrong. For it was a very typical response of Eddie to cadaver odour.

[Brietta]

I agree you are correct in you two observations but I still think your conclusion is wrong. For it was a very typical response of Eddie to cadaver odour.

What you think of as cadaver odour may not necessarily be what Eddie recognised as cadaver odour.  Like all VRD, Eddie had a wide repertoire of of scents which may have triggered his trained response. Many of which emanate from human sources which are very much alive and well.  Which is why the responses are only taken as an indication of cadaver scent and must be verified by other means than reliance on the dog's nose.

If the CSI is capable of detecting menstrual blood in an underwear drawer the VRD with no less an educated nose is surely capable of detecting that and other traces that Keela had been trained to ignore.

In my opinion that entirely rules out the alleged checks and balances which enabled the elimination strategy consisting of equating Keela's lack of response to an area alerted to by the VRD to be indicative solely of death.

The notion that the alert in the corner of the McCann bedroom could only have been cadaver odour is thus rendered null and void. 
It meant nothing that Keela did not alert. 
It also makes sense of Carana's misgivings that no knickers were evident in the clothing taken to the gymnasium.

The significance of the 'knicker drawer' was little understood by non professionals on internet forums or it seems the PJ who ruined Madeleine's parents' reputation based on what they thought Eddie's barking in the corner of the bedroom indicated.

[Robittybob1]

What you think of as cadaver odour may not necessarily be what Eddie recognised as cadaver odour.  Like all VRD, Eddie had a wide repertoire of of scents which may have triggered his trained response. Many of which emanate from human sources which are very much alive and well.  Which is why the responses are only taken as an indication of cadaver scent and must be verified by other means than reliance on the dog's nose.

If the CSI is capable of detecting menstrual blood in an underwear drawer the VRD with no less an educated nose is surely capable of detecting that and other traces that Keela had been trained to ignore.

In my opinion that entirely rules out the alleged checks and balances which enabled the elimination strategy consisting of equating Keela's lack of response to an area alerted to by the VRD to be indicative solely of death.

The notion that the alert in the corner of the McCann bedroom could only have been cadaver odour is thus rendered null and void. 
It meant nothing that Keela did not alert. 
It also makes sense of Carana's misgivings that no knickers were evident in the clothing taken to the gymnasium.

The significance of the 'knicker drawer' was little understood by non professionals on internet forums or it seems the PJ who ruined Madeleine's parents' reputation based on what they thought Eddie's barking in the corner of the bedroom indicated.

Are you saying a pair of knickers could be the cause of the confusion in the main bedroom too.  Well that is possible too now that you mention it. But it seems unlikely for there will be a significant difference between the knickers being present and just where a pair of knickers had been lying, considering the time span in between the events.  We are back into the unknown again.

[pathfinder73]

Interesting.

Morse also reacted in the bedroom as noted by Martin Grime.
“As soon as the dog entered the bedroom, he exhibited behavioural changes.”
http://loudounnow.com/2016/06/02/day-9-of-castillo-murder-trial-hones-in-on-phone-records/

There are stringent rules re independent testing which allows dogs' evidence to be presented in American courts which Morse met and indeed exceeded.

**snip
At trial, FBI Canine Program Manager Rex Stockham testified as an expert in forensic canine operation. Stockham testified about the process of training and testing victim recovery dogs. Stockham's protocol called for regular single-and double-blind testing of dogs throughout their working lives. Stockham's program had three full-time handlers in its program, including Martin Grime. Stockham testified that he had tested Morse and Keela, Grime's dogs, and that both dogs had accuracy ratings in the high 90 percent range. Stockham testified that dogs have been able to smell the odor of decomposition as soon as 2 hours after a victim's death, or years after a victim's burial.
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/mi-court-of-appeals/1683760.html

According to Martin Grime, Keela alerted only to blood.  However, Eddie's training encompassed a wider spectrum of decomposition including human blood.

**snip
The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.

**snip
The dogs do not get confused. They transmit a behavioural response inspired by the recognition of the odour for which they were trained.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm


According to the handler it isn't considered unusual for the dog trained only to alert to blood to alert as in this case to a knicker drawer. I would presume the underwear therein had been laundered but was contaminated still, although not visible to the human eye or nose.

Why would it be strange or unusual for the VRD to react to scents it was trained to recognise?
Particularly in bedrooms where it would be possible for areas to be contaminated by bodily secretions such as semen to be recognised by the VRD but which is outside the parameters of the CSI trained only to blood.

See you are twisting things again. Morse behaviour changed entering that bedroom for cadaver odour according to the experts not knickers in a draw.

"Stockham and Grime said Morse detected two areas of human decomposition, near the bathtub in the bathroom of the basement, where Michelle’s body was found, and the carpet at the foot of the bed in the master bedroom."

[Brietta]

See you are twisting things again. Morse behaviour changed entering that bedroom for cadaver odour according to the experts not knickers in a draw.

"Stockham and Grime said Morse detected two areas of human decomposition, near the bathtub in the bathroom of the basement, where Michelle’s body was found, and the carpet at the foot of the bed in the master bedroom."

Hmmmm ... how do you know what Morse was scenting? ... underwear in a drawer? temporary deposition on the rug? ... transferance?  The handlers couldn't deny the latter when asked.  They weren't asked about the underwear drawer.

The defence argued that in the bedroom the dog could have alerted to scent which ... "may have been transferred by investigators, a possibility to which the handlers did not deny."
http://loudounnow.com/2016/06/02/day-9-of-castillo-murder-trial-hones-in-on-phone-records/

How do you know whether or not use of another VRD would have given the same result?

Any idea if Stockham and Grime's assertions were backed up by usual police and scientific procedure when the indication given by the dog is subject to forensic testing to ascertain what substances, if any, are present in the area of the alert.

The Michelle's remains were not being looked for.  Evidence either to back up or refute that Michelle had been murdered in a location different to that where her remains were found was being sought.

Do you know how much weight the jury gave to the handlers' evidence when reaching their verdict?

[mercury]

Last night I re-watched the video of the dogs checking the clothes.

Keela was only shown the first few clothes and the last few shoes and clothes. 

Keela did NOT check the red tee-shirt.  She needed to do that in order for Eddies alert to point to cadavar Odour. 

Therefore the most likely scenario is that Eddie alerted to blood.

You dont know that keela and eddie did not get exercised on the same clothes, as I already said yesterday, the video is incomplete

The reports state keela did not react to any clothes
They say eddie did
What would be the point of not having both dogs scent the same clothes

So your conclusion ie the most likely scenario is eddie alerted to blood is wrong
A) because its speculation
B) if keela did scent the tshirt or trousers or white top then it could have been dried blood or cadaver scent...one dogs alert parameters doesnt cancel out the others
C) no clothes were sent to forensics, so no blood scented
D) if its true keela was sent in first and made no alert, its not possible eddie alerted to blood

Yes its comlicated, so i think its best no layman here makes any assertions

[Carana]

Are you saying a pair of knickers could be the cause of the confusion in the main bedroom too.  Well that is possible too now that you mention it. But it seems unlikely for there will be a significant difference between the knickers being present and just where a pair of knickers had been lying, considering the time span in between the events.  We are back into the unknown again.

Rob, don't forget that the flat had been let out up until a few days before the dog inspection.


- Apartment 5A was subsequently let between 12 and 19 June (to friends of the owner); 28 June to 12 July (to three people with Irish names); 12 to 19 July (to an English couple) and 19 to 26 July (to a family with Southern Asian names).
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DCCB_LETTER.htm

But it isn't clear who else had been in it between the last lot of holidaymakers and the dogs. Had it been cleaned since they left or not?


 Inspection of the apartments.

Date: July 31st 2007 - 8pm. Report:

Participants:

PJ: Tavares A. & Ricardo P. Inspectors
UK: Mark Harrison, Martin Grime (UK Forensic Canine P SM Expert),
Eddie & Keela (English Springers)
Silvia B. Manager of the Ocean Club complex.

On that date, inspections were conducted in the apartments occupied by members of the McCann family as well as the group who were with them at the time of Madeleine McCann's disappearance. It was only on that date that the apartment, identified as that of the parents, was empty allowing further investigation which was authorised by the respective occupants. Thus, at the appointed time, the search with the dogs began, covering the following apartments:

5A:

From 8.30pm to 9.20pm, the dogs go through. (...)
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm

(The latter was translated via French and I haven't found the original in PT yet.)