If Maddie may still be alive...what did the dog's alert to.

[Carana]

Put like that seems it could work the other way seeing as keela was concentrating on specific items and not a whole apartment?

What about this? Does this mean keela is sent in anyway despite an initial sweep by the cadaver dogs?
Ie gym was not a crime scene, or am I getting it all confused?
Fact is Grime can explain all this, I wonder if he will ever get the chance to

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id157.html

3rd entry on the page



When faced with a "clean" crime scene, Mr Ellis and PC Martin Grimes, Keela's other handler, will first send in Frankie, a border collie, and Eddie, another springer spaniel, to pick up any general scent. Then they wheel in the big gun.
 
"We take Keela in and she will find the minutest traces of blood," Mr Ellis said. "It's not like looking for a needle in a haystack any more. The other two dogs will find the haystack and Keela will find the needle."

I agree, Merc, that normally Eddie went in first (he was the wide spectrum four-legged chappy) and Keela got wheeled in if he alerted (to zoom in).

That doesn't appear to have the sequence in the clothes line-up. But then nothing about that makes much sense to me. For some reason, Grime didn't have a list of the items that Eddie reacted to - that was left to the PJ to provide. And I can't find any logic in what was deemed to be an alert or not. IMO, the clothes episode was a mess.

[mercury]

I don't know. Was this report wrong? Was there a reason to wheel in Keela first? There might have been, as it wouldn't be that unusual to find a speck of blood on clothes for one reason or another.

I'm still intrigued by the fact that aside from one pair of knickers, there weren't any other under garments in the line-up.

I know that you don't agree with my suspicion that Eddie could probably react to more human substances than just a dead body or dried blood, but I happen to find that a bit odd. Didn't the police find any other underwear in that entire raid inspection? Or did they, and they were set apart and the one pair of knickers was a mistake?

We are cross posting
Anyway
Not at all, if Grime says sperm was within eddies parameters it was whether it was that that he found alone or in an and/or way or not in jersey

Im not aufait with all the items in the mccann line up, never watched that intensely throughout

?

[misty]

I agree, Merc, that normally Eddie went in first (he was the wide spectrum four-legged chappy) and Keela got wheeled in if he alerted (to zoom in).

That doesn't appear to have the sequence in the clothes line-up. But then nothing about that makes much sense to me. For some reason, Grime didn't have a list of the items that Eddie reacted to - that was left to the PJ to provide. And I can't find any logic in what was deemed to be an alert or not. IMO, the clothes episode was a mess.

Maybe Keela went in first at the gym because Eddie had already been around the clothes at the villa?

[pathfinder73]

Keela ruled out blood on the clothes (why they are screened separately)  and then Eddie came next and alerted. Both dogs screened the gym before any clothes were laid out.

'With respect to the cadaver odour on Kate's clothes, could it be undoubtedly affirmed that those clothes had been in contact with a cadaver'
OR
Could the alert have been given because the clothes had been in contact with other items of clothing, surfaces or objects that could previously have touched a cadaver, thereby allowing the odour to be transferred''

There is always a possibility of contamination of odours by transferral. EVRD does not make a distinction; he responds with a certain behaviour for which he was trained when he recognizes an odour. He does not identify the reasons for the presence of the odour nor does he identify suspects. Forensic confirmation and specialized investigation methods will determine the reasons and the suspicions. In order to undoubtedly affirm there must be a confirmation of the alert signals made by the dog.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

[Robittybob1]

If you read further, you'll see that Grime admitted - in his rogatory statement - that Eddie would react to dried blood from a LIVING human being. This doesn't appear to have been made clear in his promo CV.


The dog EVRD also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver'
The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

That is because taking blood does not kill you.  For example You get a blood sample taken at the medical lab take the top off it for a week and let it rot, take a drop of that and let it dry.  So Eddie will alert to that dried blood but you will definitely be still alive and well.

[Carana]

We are cross posting
Anyway
Not at all, if Grime says sperm was within eddies parameters it was whether it was that that he found alone or in an and/or way or not in jersey

Im not aufait with all the items in the mccann line up, never watched that intensely throughout

?

I've watched it, Merc. More than once. Excruciatingly long and bewildering. Eddie didn't react in the same way to some items that made the PJ list, yet items that he reacted to in the same ways didn't make the list. I really can't work it out.

And I'm still intrigued about the lack of underwear... ;)

[pathfinder73]

Keela

'How long can a trace of blood remain at a scene and be detected by the CSI dog''

During both training and operations, the CSI dog correctly located and signalled the presence of blood from 1960. This is not at all surprising. If enough blood is present so that the dog can recognize its odour, he will locate it and alert to its presence. There is no time restriction as regards the recognition of the odour by the dog. Blood, however, is subject to deterioration such as time and other natural processes such as dilution due to rain and other reactive chemical agents.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

[Carana]

That is because taking blood does not kill you.  For example You get a blood sample taken at the medical lab take the top off it for a week and let it rot, take a drop of that and let it dry.  So Eddie will alert to that dried blood but you will definitely be still alive and well.

Yes.

I find Grime a bit misleading when he mentions "cadaver" odour. If it was a short form meaning the scent of decomposing substances originating from a human (dead or alive), then it might have been clearer and we might not have 10,000 dog threads on here.

[Robittybob1]

I don't know. Was this report wrong? Was there a reason to wheel in Keela first? There might have been, as it wouldn't be that unusual to find a speck of blood on clothes for one reason or another.

I'm still intrigued by the fact that aside from one pair of knickers, there weren't any other under garments in the line-up.

I know that you don't agree with my suspicion that Eddie could probably react to more human substances than just a dead body or dried blood, but I happen to find that a bit odd. Didn't the police find any other underwear in that entire raid inspection? Or did they, and they were set apart and the one pair of knickers was a mistake?

It would be sensible not to include items that could possibly cause false alerts eg undies and knickers.

[mercury]

I've watched it, Merc. More than once. Excrutiatingly long and bewildering. Eddie didn't react in the same way to some items that made the PJ list, yet items that he reacted to in the same ways didn't make the list. I really can't work it out.

And I'm still intrigued about the lack of underwear... ;)

Dogs are not robots
Excruciating? Im glad it was, needs to be very thorough if a childs death is suspected and the UKs police authorities recommend theybe sent in



What underwear? Why should there be loads of underwear? Whose underwear was there and whe was missing. Not following.

[pathfinder73]

Yes.

I find Grime a bit misleading when he mentions "cadaver" odour. If it was a short form meaning the scent of decomposing substances originating from a human (dead or alive), then it might have been clearer and we might not have 10,000 dog threads on here.

That is the E in Eddie's name i.e. Enhanced training in detecting cadaver odour - EVRD.

[Carana]

It would be sensible not to include items that could possibly cause false alerts eg undies and knickers.

Why exclude them if he only reacted to cadavers?

[Carana]

That is the E in Eddie's name i.e. Enhanced training in detecting cadaver odour - EVRD.

I'm not aware of other UK dogs at the time with this "enhanced" status. Was this added as a result of an alleged visit to the Body Farm?

[Carana]

It would be sensible not to include items that could possibly cause false alerts eg undies and knickers.

If he only alerted to cadavers, then why exclude underwear?

We - now - know that he would also alert to dried blood from a living human being, but there is no mention of Keela having reacted to any of the clothes.

Was the underwear not collected? Where was the underwear in relation to the rest of the clothes? Or was it stuffed in the same box and sorted prior to the filmed gym episode?

Was clean and potentially dirty laundry stuffed together or boxed separately?

[Carana]

From what I can gather, I find it quite possible that Eddie went on a trip to the US. However, I haven't found any confirmation of it.