Was there any info in JM's testimony corroborated and unknown to others?

[Opal]

Snap!  I posted about this yestersay That's why I've been looking at it for myself.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7255.msg335700#msg335700

It seems a lot of JB's friends/acquaintances used cannabis:  JM, Suzette Ford, MM.  I would be surprised if some of the others that formed JB/JM's circle didn't also indulge.  I agree!

I'm not too sure the police would be that bothered by small scale production and distribution?  I'm sure they wouldn't have bothered, But was it so small scale? MM told JB a deal had fell though in London. Then we've got the Amsterdam and Scotland trips all of which were to do with drug deals.

Why would JB owe money?  Wouldn't it be the other way round if he was the supplier?  MM supplied JB with hemp seeds.  JB produced the cannabis and he and others distributed it. So why the trips to Amsterdam and Scotland? Plus JB was having stuff sent to him through the post. I'm not talking of just cannabis here but the many trips abroad for drugs I'm not sure where you get the figure of 6k from?  I've calculated £850 in 1995 using UK inflation data = £1,985 today. I thought I'd put 1984 not 1995...? Around The time of the murders. Clearly this sort of money (or even the figure of 6K you've quoted) from drug crime pales into insignificance compared with 5 murders. Of course....  the amount I  meant was what JB would have earned on his Cannabis not what he may have owed for other drugs. if supplied

JM said there was a market on campus.  SB and JR house shared with JM and also attended the same uni.  Were they also dealing?At this time it was rife I don't think SB was dealing though as she was against JB having any in the house and stopped her. JB hated this and threw a cake into her face at a party.

JM and JB were both users.  JM admitted to experimenting with cannabis in her WS.  I think JB might have dabbled with the harder stuff too. JM admitted to trying the hard stuff but only a small piece and didn't use it again. (before JB days Anyway both worked at Sloppy Joes owned by Malcolm Waters and managed by Liz Rimmington.  At one time JB house shared with Malcolm Waters, Michael Deckers and Liz Rimmington.  Liz Rimmington was at some stage in a relationship with Malcolm Waters.  Liz Rimmington and JM were good friends.  Malcolm Waters and Michael Deckers also owned the Frog and Bean wine bar where they all hang out:  MM, Suzette Ford, Christine Bacon (girlfriend of MM's, friend of Suzette Ford's), JM, JB, LR.  Sloppy Joes had a cocktail bar so potentially this venue and the Frog and Bean provided a market for cannabis?  We've had public houses for 30 years...now that's ageing me! So believe me it's damn hard to keep drugs out of pubs,
Although we were always on top of it.... there are some nasty people out there where drugs are concerned!
I agree when you read JM's WS's cannabis featured a lot in various ways.  Have you read MM's WS's?Yes I have, it's hard to read though. I don't for one minute believe MM only gave Cannabis to his friends and didn't charge for it.

My view is that EP were listening in on the properties and simply used the drugs angle to get those that testified against JB to comply.  If you read SB's WS's she says she didn't like JB/JM bringing drugs into the house as JR and the other guy sharing the house, Dougie Dale I think, were also attached to the army and would potentially get kicked out if anything came to light.  See my reply above.

EP might have threatened to close down Sloppy Joes/Frog and Bean if EP had evidence of dealing on the premises.  Certainly.

RB does say in his WS/diary something like had JB sold his soul to the devil and something about an expensive drug habit.  It makes you wonder if A E also knew about JB's drug habit

We only have JM's word that JB implicated MM.  But we do know for certain that MM was an acquaintance of JB's by his own W/S

One other point is that if JB was dealing in drugs on someone else's patch he would be in serious  trouble...small fry dealer or not!...JB was greedy for money anyway, anyhow.

[Opal]

Has anyone seen the film 'Fatal Vision'? apparently it freaked JB because it's a true story of an army man who killed his wife and two children...then rang the police!

[Holly Goodhead]

on 7th Aug Dr Craig asked Chief Sup Harris if WHF was licenced to grow the opium poppy which he observed in a field.  Chief Sup said he wasn't. 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=157.0;attach=106

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=157.0;attach=108

Was WHF licenced?  From my very limited research it seems the UK gov issued the first licences in 2006.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papaver_somniferum

Medical cultivation in the UK

"In late 2006, the British government permitted the pharmaceutical company Macfarlan Smith (a Johnson Matthey company, FTSE 100) to cultivate opium poppies in England for medicinal reasons[39] after Macfarlan Smith's primary source, India, decided to increase the price of export opium latex. This move is well received by British farmers,[citation needed] with a major opium poppy field based in Didcot, England. As of 2012, they were growing in Dorset, Hampshire, Oxfordshire and Lincolnshire as a spring-sown breakcrop recognised under the single payment scheme farm subsidy.[40] The Office of Fair Trading has alerted the government to their monopoly position on growing in the UK and worldwide production of diamorphine and recommended consideration.[39] The government's response advocated the status quo, being concerned interference might cause the company to stop production.[41]"

[Holly Goodhead]

If, and it's a bloody big if, WHF was not licenced to grow opium poppy it may well be a reason for avoiding the police visiting at all costs.   

[scipio_usmc]

If, and it's a bloody big if, WHF was not licenced to grow opium poppy it may well be a reason for avoiding the police visiting at all costs.

Police going to WHF because of a disturbance in the residence would not be apt to go check the fields to see what was growing.  They only checked everywhere because everyone was dead. In any event Jeremy was the one growing drugs there and it was not a large cultivation. At best it shows he didn't have much respect for the law that he would not only use drugs but grow them to sell. That adds very little to the case.

If he were making sizable proceeds selling drugs grown on his parent's property the potential they found out and were going to turn him in or burn the crops and prevent him from ever doing it again would provide a motive for murdering them.  But it would only be a motive to kill them not everyone and such a thing would not be planned it would be a crime of necessity that arose. This featured nothing of the sort.  He was a small fry and nothing suggests that he killed them because they discovered he was conducing illegal activity.

If Jeremy were a target for selling drugs they would go after him not kill his family and leave him alone.
Moreover, I never heard of drug dealers showing up to kill an entire household with no weapon and searching the house for a weapon to use in order to stage a murder suicide scenario.

I think drugs cause overactive imaginations- not only people who use them but people who don't use them who have fanciful notions.

If you want to look at  areal drug related crime for growing drugs look to the recent Ohio Rhoden family Massacre.  Things like this are rare outside of the third world (in Mexico and the third world this is common).  Note how the killers there brought their won weapons and killed everyone without any effort to stage things.  When they kill to send a sign they send a sign. The intent is for people to know it is murder.

       

[Holly Goodhead]

It seems the first crop authorised by UK Gov/Home Office was 2002.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/4183331/Poppy-farmers-bring-in-morphine-harvest.html

[Holly Goodhead]

Police going to WHF because of a disturbance in the residence would not be apt to go check the fields to see what was growing.  They only checked everywhere because everyone was dead. In any event Jeremy was the one growing drugs there and it was not a large cultivation. At best it shows he didn't have much respect for the law that he would not only use drugs but grow them to sell. That adds very little to the case.

If he were making sizable proceeds selling drugs grown on his parent's property the potential they found out and were going to turn him in or burn the crops and prevent him from ever doing it again would provide a motive for murdering them.  But it would only be a motive to kill them not everyone and such a thing would not be planned it would be a crime of necessity that arose. This featured nothing of the sort.  He was a small fry and nothing suggests that he killed them because they discovered he was conducing illegal activity.

If Jeremy were a target for selling drugs they would go after him not kill his family and leave him alone.
Moreover, I never heard of drug dealers showing up to kill an entire household with no weapon and searching the house for a weapon to use in order to stage a murder suicide scenario.

I think drugs cause overactive imaginations- not only people who use them but people who don't use them who have fanciful notions.

If you want to look at  areal drug related crime for growing drugs look to the recent Ohio Rhoden family Massacre.  Things like this are rare outside of the third world (in Mexico and the third world this is common).  Note how the killers there brought their won weapons and killed everyone without any effort to stage things.  When they kill to send a sign they send a sign. The intent is for people to know it is murder.

You might recall Dr Craig walked with JB along some path on morning of 7th and identified the opium poppy growing.  I've provided Chief Sup Harris' WS confirming such.

I think I recall NB assigned a few acres for JB to manage but I can't believe NB wasn't overseeing him.  If Dr Craig observed in darkness I'm sure NB was aware.

[scipio_usmc]

You might recall Dr Craig walked with JB along some path on morning of 7th and identified the opium poppy growing.  I've provided Chief Sup Harris' WS confirming such.

I think I recall NB assigned a few acres for JB to manage but I can't believe NB wasn't overseeing him.  If Dr Craig observed in darkness I'm sure NB was aware.

It said Craig thought there was a small field of opium poppy.  That doesn't mean he was right about it being opium poppy he could have been wrong. Police have mistaken poppy weeds for opium. Even if it was though, it was a small field and they lacked the technology to harvest opium from it. Opium cultivation is only profitable when you farm it large scale.  The farmer doesn't get that much for it from a drug cartel. That pay is worth more in 3rd world countries and the legal risk less severe so that is why it is mostly grown there. 

If Jeremy was making big bucks as a drug dealer he could have told his family to go to Hell and simply made his own way without them.  In the meantime he was planning to sell the farm. If he had killed them in order to take over the farm to build some big drug operation he would not have been planning to sell it. I don't see any of the drug claims as being relevant in any way to the murders or even worthy of consideration as a standalone. To me I simply a "yawn". 

[Myster]

If Jerry was a poppy head, he'd probably have been like Ringo, going round signing "peace and love" to everyone he met... but there's no mention of that in any of the witness statements.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gw9ykQToLBM

[Holly Goodhead]

It said Craig thought there was a small field of opium poppy.  That doesn't mean he was right about it being opium poppy he could have been wrong. Police have mistaken poppy weeds for opium. Even if it was though, it was a small field and they lacked the technology to harvest opium from it. Opium cultivation is only profitable when you farm it large scale.  The farmer doesn't get that much for it from a drug cartel. That pay is worth more in 3rd world countries and the legal risk less severe so that is why it is mostly grown there. 

If Jeremy was making big bucks as a drug dealer he could have told his family to go to Hell and simply made his own way without them.  In the meantime he was planning to sell the farm. If he had killed them in order to take over the farm to build some big drug operation he would not have been planning to sell it. I don't see any of the drug claims as being relevant in any way to the murders or even worthy of consideration as a standalone. To me I simply a "yawn".

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=157.0;attach=106

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=157.0;attach=108

EP didn't identify the opium poppy it was Dr Craig a medical doctor of some 30 years experience.  He would surely know an opium poppy when he saw one since it is used for morphine production.  He identified it from afar whilst walking with JB.  He then alerted Chief Sup Harris to it and the pair investigated by looking at a small area in a field.  It doesn't make clear the total area used just that they looked at a small area.  The farm/NB were known for their innovation/crop diversity eg evening primrose oil.

Yes it seems extracting the poppy seeds and turning them into Heroin is a complex business and beyond the likes of JB.  But there could be other more legitimate markets such as shipping it outside UK to a  pharmaceutical company if NB was involved.  Or JB might have simply grown the poppies for a drug cartel who had the means to produce heroin but I find this difficult to believe as the field was clearly visible and I don't think NB would condone this. 

If NB was aware the farm was growing a crop it was not licenced for it may have been a reason to avoid the police calling..

[Holly Goodhead]

If Jerry was a poppy head, he'd probably have been like Ringo, going round signing "peace and love" to everyone he met... but there's no mention of that in any of the witness statements.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gw9ykQToLBM

There's no mention of JB attempting anything beyond cultivating cannabis plants.  But if the farm had secured an overseas market eg pharmaceutical company all concerned may have kept quiet.  It appears the UK Government issued the first licences in 2002.

[Holly Goodhead]

One other point is that if JB was dealing in drugs on someone else's patch he would be in serious  trouble...small fry dealer or not!...JB was greedy for money anyway, anyhow.

Did JB take drug related trips to Scotland? I thought he picked up a hitch-hiker who was based in Scotland and they ended up making an arrangement whereby JB sent packages via the post and the hitch- hiker mailed JB £100.

Apparently BC had a  brother in Holland.  When JB, JM, and BC visited post murders it seems they went to some cafe where they were given a menu and tried different types.  Maybe what they brought back into the UK was for own use or JB hoped to cultivate different types.

Sorry typo.  I calculated £850 based on 1985 using UK inflation figs for today and arrived at £1,985.  I also said JM experimented with cannabis and I meant to say cocaine.  I sound decidedly boring by comparison    I've only ever tried smoking dope a few times many years ago but as I've never smoked conventional cigs it didn't seem to have any effect.  Maybe a couple of times it did but I couldn't be sure whether it was the cannabis or alcohol.  I've always been happy with a beer and couple of glasses of wine. 

SB said she was against JB/JM brining drugs into the house but we only have her word for that or EP's if her WS was coerced.  These girls were not goody two shoes.  I'm of a similar age and background and it wouldn't have even entered my head to commit cheque fraud. And in JM's case distribute drugs and assist a boyfriend break into the family firm and steal a few hundred quid.  I can't think of any girls I hang out with that would do these sorts of things.  It wouldn't have even been a case of weighing up the risks it simply wouldn't have even entered my head.  SB said she accompanied JM to a bank to obtain some plastic money bags for the cannabis.   

Yes I agree if you sent testers into every licensed premises in the land they would probably find traces of drugs on the premises of all.  But if LR and Malcolm Waters/Michael Deckers were involved they were the proprietors/managers and holders of the licence for alcohol.  This is different from say JB trading a bit of dope on the premises.  If EP were aware they were aware or part of then potentially they could shut the places down and their livlihoods and reputations would be in tatters.

There's certainly some evidence EP could potentially have used the drugs angle on many of those that testified against JB.

I'm not sure JB was treading on anyones toes?  It seems his market was middle classe types at uni and in wine bars.

[Holly Goodhead]

JM was also very good friends with Karen Bishop (KB) who she met while working at Sloppy Joes.  JM was a bridesmaid for KB so pretty good friends.  In CAL's book JM tells she hinted to KB about JB's involvement but stopped short of telling her.  Why tell SB and LR and not KB?  Could the reason for this be that KB had no involvement with drugs and therefore EP would not be able to coerce her into anything? 

[Holly Goodhead]

JM's WS details how JB cultivated the cannabis plants and used various fertilizers.  I remember posting on Blue how I thought it was a strange coincidence that SC and Suzette Ford both experienced several miscarriages.  I think with SC there was some gyne problem but I do wonder if it was anything to do with the cannabis they both smoked.  Although there doesn't seem to be any evidence JB supplied SC. 

[david1819]

If Jerry was a poppy head, he'd probably have been like Ringo, going round signing "peace and love" to everyone he met... but there's no mention of that in any of the witness statements.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gw9ykQToLBM

Opiates don't typically have a "peace and love" effect. However if he was an addict prosecutors could argue the addiction and financial costs of such addiction could be motive for killing everyone for inheritance.