Author Topic: Blood spatter? Fact or myth?  (Read 48218 times)

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Alfie

  • Guest
Re: Blood spatter? Fact or myth?
« Reply #165 on: June 08, 2016, 02:40:48 PM »

could be because the correct chemicals were not used ..............it could have been there ...
So, are you saying blood spatter in Apartment 5 A is not a myth, and is therefore a fact?

Offline xtina

Re: Blood spatter? Fact or myth?
« Reply #166 on: June 08, 2016, 02:47:14 PM »
So, are you saying blood spatter in Apartment 5 A is not a myth, and is therefore a fact?


oh....is that what i said......... @)(++(* @)(++(*......

i thought i posted this...........

could be because the correct chemicals were not used ..............it could have been there ...
« Last Edit: June 09, 2016, 02:12:10 AM by Eleanor »
Always listen to both sides of the story before you judge.

The first storyteller you will always find has modified the story, for there benefit BE WISE.

Alfie

  • Guest
Re: Blood spatter? Fact or myth?
« Reply #167 on: June 08, 2016, 03:37:28 PM »

oh....is that what i said......... @)(++(* @)(++(*......

i thought i posted this...........

could be because the correct chemicals were not used ..............it could have been there ...
You go on believing that if it makes you happy.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2016, 02:12:39 AM by Eleanor »

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Blood spatter? Fact or myth?
« Reply #168 on: June 08, 2016, 04:10:13 PM »
It is interesting that we had that situation in Cipriano.  Chemicals being used to clean a crimescene, human blood spatter on a wall and a mother who confessed to having accidentally killed her daughter by hitting her head off that same wall?

And no forensic match to the victim in either case

Offline Carana

Re: Blood spatter? Fact or myth?
« Reply #169 on: June 08, 2016, 05:25:09 PM »
It is interesting that we had that situation in Cipriano.  Chemicals being used to clean a crimescene, human blood spatter on a wall and a mother who confessed to having accidentally killed her daughter by hitting her head off that same wall?

I haven't found any evidence of chemicals used to clean a crime scene in either case.

ETA: Neither have I found any evidence of human blood spatter or any spatter indicating a violent demise on any walls in either case.

Which leaves an initial potential "confession" of one mother under undetermined conditions, which was inadmissible in court, as was the "confession" during the officially recognised torture saga and the undetermined conditions under which the brother agreed to proceed with this "reconstruction". There was no forensic evidence to back it up, nor even any significant amount of credible circumstantial evidence for that matter.

 
Oh.

And two missing children.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2016, 07:52:58 PM by Carana »

Offline Carana

Re: Blood spatter? Fact or myth?
« Reply #170 on: June 09, 2016, 06:38:37 AM »
My apologies if I have missed this.  It can be quite difficult catching up on a thread at times.

Now, when you say 'blood does not fluoresce under UV light' do you mean one cannot find blood spots with UV light?  That would be a big step forward in understanding what happened.

SIL, I think it would be easier if you went back to the beginning of the thread, as a few of us posted different bits of information on the first few pages.

If you go back, you'll find that it was Amaral who said in his book that the dog detected blood on the wall, but you'll also find that that is contradicted by the files (and the video shows no such thing).

On the UV point:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7281.msg336889#msg336889

Also worth a read:
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/finding-blood-with-uv-light.388224/

http://www.crime-scene-investigator.net/alternatelightsources.html




Offline Carana

Re: Blood spatter? Fact or myth?
« Reply #171 on: June 11, 2016, 05:58:17 AM »
@ SIL

The current technology is SGM Plus, introduced in 1999, which looks at 10 STRs.





From a CPS paper, but link not working:


B4. Adventitious (chance) DNA Matches

B4.1 Move to 16-marker system (recommendation 23)
Lines to take
SGM Plus DNA profiling is very discriminating between individuals. The probability of obtaining a match between the profiles of two unrelated individuals by chance is very low, of the order of 1 in a billion. However, it has not yet been possible to carry out the required statistical testing to be able to quote this match probability, and in practice a more conservative chance match figure of 1 in 1,000 million is used.

The Government has every confidence in the current SGM Plus profiling technology but recognises that it should keep its reliability and level of discrimination under review.

The NDNAD now contains the profiles of over 3 million individuals from our population of 60 million. We are not aware of any chance match between two full SGM Plus profiles for unrelated individuals having been obtained to date. However, as the size of the NDNAD grows and as more international comparisons are made with other countries' DNA profiles, the probability, although currently very small, will increase.

The SGM Plus profiling system looks at 10 STR (short tandem repeat) areas of DNA. It would be technically possible to improve the discriminating power of the SGM Plus profiling system further by testing for more markers, for example by developing a profiling system which looks at 13 or 16 STRs.
Recent research studies by the European DNA Profiling Group (EDNAP) and the European Network of Forensic Science Institutes (ENFSI) have demonstrated that the success rate for analysis of partly degraded samples (which may be found at crime scenes and which result in a partial profile with less than 21 markers) improved by using recently developed tests for markers based on mini-STRs (shorter lengths of DNA).

At a meeting earlier this year, EDNAP/ENFSI agreed that its strategy should be to incorporate tests for some of the mini-STRs into new profiling systems. It was also proposed that work should be undertaken to re-engineer the test for the existing markers in SGM Plus to make them easier to detect in degraded DNA.

For DNA profiling in the UK, this might mean the addition of tests for 3-6 of the new mini-STR markers to the current (possibly re-engineered) 10 SGM Plus markers, ideally in a single profiling technique i.e. the development of a technique which looks at 13-16 STR areas.

The international scientific community have agreed that the best way forward would be to develop a new 13-plex or 16-plex technique. This would also need to take account of the divergent requirements of the different European countries. The timescale for the development and introduction of a new multiplex profiling technique (one that looks at multiple markers) would be a commercial decision by the companies that make the multiplexes. It is estimated that the development of a new 13-plex or 16-plex could take 2-3 years. A 13 marker system would give match probabilities of about 1 in 10 (to the power 15) (compared to 1 in 10 (to the power 12) for SGM Plus).

Background Information
The technology used to obtain DNA profiles for the NDNAD looks at specific areas of DNA, known as short tandem repeats (STRs). STRs are known to vary widely between individuals by virtue of variation in their length and are therefore extremely useful for identification purposes.

The STRs are found only in the non-coding region of DNA and therefore provide no information of genetic significance e.g. about an individual's genetic predisposition to a medical condition.

The DNA technology used in forensic science has evolved enormously since DNA was first used in 1987. The first STR technique was introduced in 1994 and looked at only 4 STR areas. The next development was SGM (second generation multiplex) profiling which looked at 6 STRs. A multiplex is a profiling system which looks at more than one STR area.

The current technology is SGM Plus, introduced in 1999, which looks at 10 STRs. For each STR, there are 2 markers (or alleles), one from the individual's mother and one from their father. There is also a gender marker. A full DNA profile for the NDNAD therefore contains 20 markers and the gender marker.

When fewer than 20 markers have been determined - for example from degraded or incomplete samples from crime scenes - the level of discrimination is reduced accordingly.

The Government has every confidence in the current SGM Plus profiling technology but recognises that it should keep its reliability and level of discrimination under review.

The NDNAD now contains the profiles of over 3 million individuals from our population of 60 million. There is a very small probability of a chance match occurring between two full SGM Plus profiles for unrelated individuals, but we are not aware of any such chance match having been obtained to date. However, as the size of the NDNAD grows and as more international comparisons are made with other countries' DNA profiles, this probability, although small, will increase.

The risk of a chance match will also increase if the crime scene profile is a partial profile (i.e. does not have all 21 markers). Comparison of partial profiles from crime scene samples with full SGM Plus profiles from individuals on the NDNAD is thus more likely to result in matches being found relating to more than one individual. The evidential significance of a match between a suspect and a crime scene sample must always be considered in conjunction with other evidence available to the police.

B4.2 Current Practice in Preventing Adventitious Matches involving SGM Profiles
NB. The issue of how chance matches are avoided in relation to DNA profiles developed using the SGM system (which has now been replaced by SGM Plus) was raised at the last hearing of the Committee.

Lines to take
In relation to SGM to SGM matches (which test for only 6 STRs), Home Office Circular 58/2004 and the ACPO DNA Good Practice Guide advise that strong consideration should be given to upgrading the SGM suspect offender profile to SGM+ to ensure that the upgraded SGM+ suspect offender profile matches the crime scene profile before the matter comes to trial.

If the upgraded profile does not match with the crime scene profile, the NDNAD issues a Match Elimination Notification which indicates that the further analysis has eliminated the original SGM suspect offender profile from the SGM to SGM match. [The inference would be that the original SGM to SGM match was a chance match.]

It was suggested that a sampling exercise should be carried out to provide assurance that police forces were taking appropriate action to monitor and deal with SGM match notifications received from the Database.
The Home Office has recently written to several police forces to ask them about their procedures for considering the evidential quality of SGM matches e.g. whether such matches are upgraded to SGM+ and in what circumstances.
The forces have also been asked to undertake a case-tracking exercise of crimes with DNA SGM matches to look at how many SGM matches were upgraded to SGM+, how many continued to match the crime scene profile and, if not, whether the case went to court on the basis of other non-DNA evidence or whether there was insufficient evidence to proceed.

Background information

The SGM profiling technique was introduced in 1995 around the time that the NDNAD was established. SGM (second generation multiplex) tests for 6 STR areas or markers. It was subsequently replaced in 1999 by SGM Plus which test for 10 STR areas. Since June 1999, only SGM Plus profiles have been loaded on to the NDNAD.

In 2001, the National DNA Database Board recommended that consideration should be given, on a case by case basis, to upgrading any SGM profiles involved in a match, before taking any further steps, to minimise the risk of the match being adventitious (chance).

When a match involves an SGM profile, the police are made fully aware through caveats attached to the match report of its potential limitations as an intelligence tool for identifying suspects.

In 2004, the NDNAD and CPS agreed to a policy of charging on the basis of a Database match but only where there was sufficient supporting evidence. If the match involved an SGM profile, upgrading the profile to SGM Plus was recommended.

Link not working...
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/scientific_evidence/adventitious_dna_matches/index.html

Offline Carana

Re: Blood spatter? Fact or myth?
« Reply #172 on: June 11, 2016, 06:07:52 AM »
I harp on about it because it is claimed nearly all spots in this examination can be explained by human dust.  Yet the sofa and the curtains are remarkably free of human dust.

SIL

Of course, there is going to be human dust everywhere. But, they only took swabs when something was noticed (either visually to the naked eye or through waving the torch around). There is no mention of having used luminol.


The torch makes many human fluids fluoresce (saliva, semen, sweat...), except blood.

The only person who claimed that there was blood on the wall is Amaral.


Offline Carana

Re: Blood spatter? Fact or myth?
« Reply #173 on: June 11, 2016, 06:18:34 AM »
Why should eddie have alerted to them....dead skin cells would not cause eddie to alert and skin cells are being shed all the time...eddie would not alert to saliva.....again saliva containg shed epithelial cells that would contain dna...eddie would not alert to sweat...again which may contain shed epithelial cells..

So there is your answer... Not tricky at all from the poster you claimed did not understand the dog alerts

A potential exception to that might be anaerobic decomposition of skin and sweat (which could explain Cuddle Cat), but that wouldn't appear to be the case on the wall.

It's not clear exactly where Eddie was alerting aside from the general area.

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Blood spatter? Fact or myth?
« Reply #174 on: June 11, 2016, 05:10:09 PM »
@ SIL

The current technology is SGM Plus, introduced in 1999, which looks at 10 STRs.





From a CPS paper, but link not working:


B4. Adventitious (chance) DNA Matches

B4.1 Move to 16-marker system (recommendation 23)
Lines to take
SGM Plus DNA profiling is very discriminating between individuals. The probability of obtaining a match between the profiles of two unrelated individuals by chance is very low, of the order of 1 in a billion. However, it has not yet been possible to carry out the required statistical testing to be able to quote this match probability, and in practice a more conservative chance match figure of 1 in 1,000 million is used.

The Government has every confidence in the current SGM Plus profiling technology but recognises that it should keep its reliability and level of discrimination under review.

The NDNAD now contains the profiles of over 3 million individuals from our population of 60 million. We are not aware of any chance match between two full SGM Plus profiles for unrelated individuals having been obtained to date. However, as the size of the NDNAD grows and as more international comparisons are made with other countries' DNA profiles, the probability, although currently very small, will increase.

The SGM Plus profiling system looks at 10 STR (short tandem repeat) areas of DNA. It would be technically possible to improve the discriminating power of the SGM Plus profiling system further by testing for more markers, for example by developing a profiling system which looks at 13 or 16 STRs.
Recent research studies by the European DNA Profiling Group (EDNAP) and the European Network of Forensic Science Institutes (ENFSI) have demonstrated that the success rate for analysis of partly degraded samples (which may be found at crime scenes and which result in a partial profile with less than 21 markers) improved by using recently developed tests for markers based on mini-STRs (shorter lengths of DNA).

At a meeting earlier this year, EDNAP/ENFSI agreed that its strategy should be to incorporate tests for some of the mini-STRs into new profiling systems. It was also proposed that work should be undertaken to re-engineer the test for the existing markers in SGM Plus to make them easier to detect in degraded DNA.

For DNA profiling in the UK, this might mean the addition of tests for 3-6 of the new mini-STR markers to the current (possibly re-engineered) 10 SGM Plus markers, ideally in a single profiling technique i.e. the development of a technique which looks at 13-16 STR areas.

The international scientific community have agreed that the best way forward would be to develop a new 13-plex or 16-plex technique. This would also need to take account of the divergent requirements of the different European countries. The timescale for the development and introduction of a new multiplex profiling technique (one that looks at multiple markers) would be a commercial decision by the companies that make the multiplexes. It is estimated that the development of a new 13-plex or 16-plex could take 2-3 years. A 13 marker system would give match probabilities of about 1 in 10 (to the power 15) (compared to 1 in 10 (to the power 12) for SGM Plus).

Background Information
The technology used to obtain DNA profiles for the NDNAD looks at specific areas of DNA, known as short tandem repeats (STRs). STRs are known to vary widely between individuals by virtue of variation in their length and are therefore extremely useful for identification purposes.

The STRs are found only in the non-coding region of DNA and therefore provide no information of genetic significance e.g. about an individual's genetic predisposition to a medical condition.

The DNA technology used in forensic science has evolved enormously since DNA was first used in 1987. The first STR technique was introduced in 1994 and looked at only 4 STR areas. The next development was SGM (second generation multiplex) profiling which looked at 6 STRs. A multiplex is a profiling system which looks at more than one STR area.

The current technology is SGM Plus, introduced in 1999, which looks at 10 STRs. For each STR, there are 2 markers (or alleles), one from the individual's mother and one from their father. There is also a gender marker. A full DNA profile for the NDNAD therefore contains 20 markers and the gender marker.

When fewer than 20 markers have been determined - for example from degraded or incomplete samples from crime scenes - the level of discrimination is reduced accordingly.

The Government has every confidence in the current SGM Plus profiling technology but recognises that it should keep its reliability and level of discrimination under review.

The NDNAD now contains the profiles of over 3 million individuals from our population of 60 million. There is a very small probability of a chance match occurring between two full SGM Plus profiles for unrelated individuals, but we are not aware of any such chance match having been obtained to date. However, as the size of the NDNAD grows and as more international comparisons are made with other countries' DNA profiles, this probability, although small, will increase.

The risk of a chance match will also increase if the crime scene profile is a partial profile (i.e. does not have all 21 markers). Comparison of partial profiles from crime scene samples with full SGM Plus profiles from individuals on the NDNAD is thus more likely to result in matches being found relating to more than one individual. The evidential significance of a match between a suspect and a crime scene sample must always be considered in conjunction with other evidence available to the police.

B4.2 Current Practice in Preventing Adventitious Matches involving SGM Profiles
NB. The issue of how chance matches are avoided in relation to DNA profiles developed using the SGM system (which has now been replaced by SGM Plus) was raised at the last hearing of the Committee.

Lines to take
In relation to SGM to SGM matches (which test for only 6 STRs), Home Office Circular 58/2004 and the ACPO DNA Good Practice Guide advise that strong consideration should be given to upgrading the SGM suspect offender profile to SGM+ to ensure that the upgraded SGM+ suspect offender profile matches the crime scene profile before the matter comes to trial.

If the upgraded profile does not match with the crime scene profile, the NDNAD issues a Match Elimination Notification which indicates that the further analysis has eliminated the original SGM suspect offender profile from the SGM to SGM match. [The inference would be that the original SGM to SGM match was a chance match.]

It was suggested that a sampling exercise should be carried out to provide assurance that police forces were taking appropriate action to monitor and deal with SGM match notifications received from the Database.
The Home Office has recently written to several police forces to ask them about their procedures for considering the evidential quality of SGM matches e.g. whether such matches are upgraded to SGM+ and in what circumstances.
The forces have also been asked to undertake a case-tracking exercise of crimes with DNA SGM matches to look at how many SGM matches were upgraded to SGM+, how many continued to match the crime scene profile and, if not, whether the case went to court on the basis of other non-DNA evidence or whether there was insufficient evidence to proceed.

Background information

The SGM profiling technique was introduced in 1995 around the time that the NDNAD was established. SGM (second generation multiplex) tests for 6 STR areas or markers. It was subsequently replaced in 1999 by SGM Plus which test for 10 STR areas. Since June 1999, only SGM Plus profiles have been loaded on to the NDNAD.

In 2001, the National DNA Database Board recommended that consideration should be given, on a case by case basis, to upgrading any SGM profiles involved in a match, before taking any further steps, to minimise the risk of the match being adventitious (chance).

When a match involves an SGM profile, the police are made fully aware through caveats attached to the match report of its potential limitations as an intelligence tool for identifying suspects.

In 2004, the NDNAD and CPS agreed to a policy of charging on the basis of a Database match but only where there was sufficient supporting evidence. If the match involved an SGM profile, upgrading the profile to SGM Plus was recommended.

Link not working...
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/scientific_evidence/adventitious_dna_matches/index.html
Excellent stuff. Many thanks!

If I boil this down into simple English, the 2 potential matches remaining for spot 4 were SGM, and the NDNAD had been loading only SGM+ since June 1999.

Therefore, the two matches had been loaded onto NDNAD about 8 years or more before M disappeared.  And the persons supplying them had not been re-tested since then, at least in the UK.

So, for a match to be valid, these persons would have had to have dropped off UK radar for 8 years.  Such as an innocent person in 1999, who commits a heinous crime in 2007.  Or an offender who gets out of prison, then moves to Portugal.  Or an offender in the UK who decides to avoid the NDNAD by simply leaving the country.

I wonder if the FSS or LP had access to the reason why those samples were on the NDNAD?

Switching back to the topic title, I understand that 1) an agent that reacted to blood was not used 2) UV was used, and it does not detect blood 3) the dogs did not alert to the walls.  So far, it looks like the wall spots are probably not blood.

However, a visual examination of the area was conducted by the PT team, and we don't get told whether a given spot was found by naked eye or under UV light.

Into this mix we need to throw the samples that are attributed to more than one person.  (Sorry, I haven't worked through the FSS report to count how many of these there were.) 

In trying to come up with a feasible explanation, the best I can do is mosquitos.  Not for all the spots, but just for the multi-person spots, however many there are.  This would leave me unclear as to why these spots did not interest the dogs.

Is there anything that explains multi-person spots that should not interest the dogs?
What's up, old man?

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Blood spatter? Fact or myth?
« Reply #175 on: June 11, 2016, 05:20:11 PM »
Excellent stuff. Many thanks!

If I boil this down into simple English, the 2 potential matches remaining for spot 4 were SGM, and the NDNAD had been loading only SGM+ since June 1999.

Therefore, the two matches had been loaded onto NDNAD about 8 years or more before M disappeared.  And the persons supplying them had not been re-tested since then, at least in the UK.

So, for a match to be valid, these persons would have had to have dropped off UK radar for 8 years.  Such as an innocent person in 1999, who commits a heinous crime in 2007.  Or an offender who gets out of prison, then moves to Portugal.  Or an offender in the UK who decides to avoid the NDNAD by simply leaving the country.

I wonder if the FSS or LP had access to the reason why those samples were on the NDNAD?

Switching back to the topic title, I understand that 1) an agent that reacted to blood was not used 2) UV was used, and it does not detect blood 3) the dogs did not alert to the walls.  So far, it looks like the wall spots are probably not blood.

However, a visual examination of the area was conducted by the PT team, and we don't get told whether a given spot was found by naked eye or under UV light.

Into this mix we need to throw the samples that are attributed to more than one person.  (Sorry, I haven't worked through the FSS report to count how many of these there were.) 

In trying to come up with a feasible explanation, the best I can do is mosquitos.  Not for all the spots, but just for the multi-person spots, however many there are.  This would leave me unclear as to why these spots did not interest the dogs.

Is there anything that explains multi-person spots that should not interest the dogs?

so no blood...no splatter and no connection to Maddie

Offline Lace

Re: Blood spatter? Fact or myth?
« Reply #176 on: June 11, 2016, 05:30:51 PM »
SIL

Of course, there is going to be human dust everywhere. But, they only took swabs when something was noticed (either visually to the naked eye or through waving the torch around). There is no mention of having used luminol.


The torch makes many human fluids fluoresce (saliva, semen, sweat...), except blood.

The only person who claimed that there was blood on the wall is Amaral.

Didn't Amaral say the blood on the wall had something to do with resuscitation?

You can see where all these Myths come from can't you,  forensic put markers on the wall and all of a sudden it's  BLOOD SPATTER.    Or maybe just grubby marks from the hands of children,  with chocolate on there fingers or sauce or what ever.

Offline mercury

Re: Blood spatter? Fact or myth?
« Reply #177 on: June 13, 2016, 01:47:25 AM »
Thefss report in itself was dodgy in the way it described findings...inconsistent

Offline Brietta

Re: Blood spatter? Fact or myth?
« Reply #178 on: June 13, 2016, 12:24:42 PM »
Thefss report in itself was dodgy in the way it described findings...inconsistent

If Mr Amaral was unable to interpret the FSS Report for himself ... he had access to Portuguese experts with the capability of explaining the content succinctly to him ... if he had taken the time to use their expertise instead of relying on 'dreams' and 'barks', it would have saved everyone including himself so much trouble.

It would also have meant the focus of the investigation could have become yet again the missing Madeleine with the information relating to her being the priority.

There was no 'bloody footprint' in 5A nor was there any 'blood splatter' or any forensic support for either ... one therefore has to wonder precisely why some have felt it necessary to perpetuate that there was for nine years.

The mistaken belief must still be held ... or why else ask shining about it on her blog?
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Blood spatter? Fact or myth?
« Reply #179 on: June 13, 2016, 05:02:04 PM »
I will dig into this again when I have finished on the "blood spatter" analysis.  But from memory, at least in two instances Amaral was working from a report written by a PJ inspector, where an error crept in at the inspector stage i.e. the summary report itself was inaccurate.

I don't know how many instances of this there may be, though I guess I will be compiling a list of such instances from now on.

Due to the sheer volume of diligences, Amaral had to rely on his officers reporting accurately, rather than ignoring their reports and reading all the base material himself.
What's up, old man?