Did the Tapas 9 group know in advance of child monitoring arrangements?

[G-Unit]

The fact that no listening service was available in PDL would not lead anyone to suspect that it was for 'sinister' reasons.   The fact that they knew the service was offered by MW - no matter where it was - would make them believe that it was a bona fide method of childcare - simply because it was being offered by a reputable tour operator.

Add that to the fact that no tragedies had ever been reported as a result of that service - even after years and years of it being in operation and IMO it's not difficult to understand why people did think it was safe.

If you can't see that Faith - I can't help you - and we shall have to agree to differ.

Matthew had been to Mark Warner in Lemnos;

the other ones... tend to be sort of a compound....sort of self-enclosed.....there's a warden sort of at the gate house....and they do a baby listening service....a number of the Nannies who are on rota who will sit at the bottom of the.....Lemnos was sort of like lots of little cottages, not cottages, little sort of flats, apartments going up on two hillsides, and so they would walk round, erm, you know, round and went past all the, erm, apartments and have a listen at the door to see whether anybody was crying or upset and at the start of the evening, as you went past, you'd give them your room number and where you were going to be and then if they heard anybody crying you'd then be taken back up the, erm, you know, they'd find you in the restaurant and you'd go up to the door and see what was going on
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm

So the resort was enclosed. The nannies seemed to have a location where they sat. They would leave this periodically and walk round listening. Even when not listening per se they were visible and anyone heading up those hills was visible to them too.

Neither the resort nor the listening are comparable imo.

[mercury]

i think that any responsible parent pause for thought on learning that the listening service was not available in PDL but was in other MW resorts but that aside what are your views with regard to leaving an apartment unsecured with sleeping children inside ?

Look forward to them

[pegasus]

Matthew had been to Mark Warner in Lemnos; .... (snip)

"we'd been to the Greek one in Lemnos ... before X was born" (source: MO rog).

[pegasus]

And anyone who thinks that the Sept 2006 Lemnos holiday was to the MW resort is mistaken.
In fact the Sept 2006 Lemnos joint holiday was to a NON-MW resort therefore it was impossible for anyone to have used an MW listening service on that holiday.

[G-Unit]

And anyone who thinks that the Sept 2006 Lemnos holiday was to the MW resort is mistaken.
In fact the Sept 2006 Lemnos joint holiday was to a NON-MW resort therefore it was impossible for anyone to have used an MW listening service on that holiday.

That seems to be where they got the idea from, although their situation was very different.

[Benice]

i think that any responsible parent pause for thought on learning that the listening service was not available in PDL but was in other MW resorts but that aside what are your views with regard to leaving an apartment unsecured with sleeping children inside ?

My opinion is the same as it has always been i.e. that they were too trusting and made a human error.  I have no difficulty at all in understanding why they did that.

However,  knowing as we do of the horrific cruelty/neglect/torture inflicted on children by truly evil people - then  if I live to be a hundred I will never understand how a human error made by loving parents has been elevated to the  'crime of the century'  by some - and for which they apparently deserve to be persecuted for the rest of their lives.   I just don't get it.
 
I am far more critical of those parents who - even though they know what happened to Madeleine - still use baby alarms and the listening service and leave their children asleep while they go to dinner when they are on holiday.

 
IMO

[Brietta]

My opinion is the same as it has always been i.e. that they were too trusting and made a human error.  I have no difficulty at all in understanding why they did that.

However,  knowing as we do of the horrific cruelty/neglect/torture inflicted on children by truly evil people - then  if I live to be a hundred I will never understand how a human error made by loving parents has been elevated to the  'crime of the century'  by some - and for which they apparently deserve to be persecuted for the rest of their lives.   I just don't get it.
 
I am far more critical of those parents who - even though they know what happened to Madeleine - still use baby alarms and the listening service and leave their children asleep while they go to dinner when they are on holiday.

 
IMO

I agree, Benice.

One only has to read about the horror of Liam Fee's two years of life and that of the two boys he shared a home with to form an opinion of what really constitutes neglect.

The regime of constantly checking the children while they ate at a table two minutes away had actually worked perfectly well as far as normal hazards were concerned.
The sick child was attended to ... and no conceivable harm came to any of the other children left on their own behind what we now know to be insecure shutters in what we now know to be a hot spot of burglars gaining entry via windows.

No-one had given a thought to a predator doing the rounds in the Algarve particularly as well as there being denial about the burglaries there was denial, or no general knowledge of the predator preying on British children.

Why would abduction have entered anyone's head until after Madeleine was taken?  Why would anyone wish to persecute her parents for the mistake they will live with for the rest of their lives?

[Mr Gray]

Just remind me Brietta, who made the choice to leave their children by themselves and unguarded ?

#You use the word unguarded...which allowed an abduction

[Miss Taken Identity]

#You use the word unguarded...which allowed an abduction

Yes now you are catching on...missing is more accurate than 'abduction' as there is no evidence of 'abduction'

 The plain fact that many people cannot understand is why they couldn't take the children with them for a meal or why not dine at tea time 5/6 o'clock and let the children fall asleep in their buggies  etc. Selfish/uncaring parents comes to mind.

[misty]

Doesnt matter anymore,waste of time discussng it but them leaving their toddlers in an unsecure flat cant be whitewashed

There are many children sleeping in unsecured/unsafe premises every night, Mercury. Very few go missing.

[mercury]

There are many children sleeping in unsecured/unsafe premises every night, Mercury. Very few go missing.

What all alone too? Making two situations possible, walking out and being taken

[misty]

What all alone too? Making two situations possible, walking out and being taken

Yes - but we've been over this all so many times.

[mercury]

Yes - but we've been over this all so many times.

Have we?
Is it the even if youre at home your child can be taken? Even if true doesnt give license to people to leave toddlers alone, not forgetting other risks

[G-Unit]

Apparently the 'listening service' or lack thereof caused consternation during the booking process;

For the rest, he relates that the couples would give preference to resorts that have 'baby listening' services available.

Furthermore, he wishes to make clear that while making the aforementioned reservations the operator had told them that a 'baby listening' service was not in place in the Ocean Club Garden.

That fact had made some of the couples - and himself in particular - reluctant to come to Portugal because all the families have minor children.

As far as he [MO] is concerned, he wishes at this time to add that, in conversation with DP on a date he does not recall with certainty but likely to have been on 7 or 8 May, he [DP] confided in him that that, at that time, KH had been particularly reluctant about coming to Portugal because she had had a bad feeling [presentiment] about the children of the group and the non-existence of the 'baby sitting' service.

Nevertheless, he relates that, they had discussed this problem resolving to make the trip since the operator had assured them accommodation sufficiently close together that, collectively, they had managed to assure the checking and supervision of their respective progeny.

Consequently, David had taken charge of negotiations with the operator to have all lodgings as close to each other as possible. Nonetheless, and because he was asked, he adds that on leaving England they did not know the exact apartments which they had been allotted.

Nevertheless, he relates that DP had asked the operator that they be provided with lodgings in close proximity to each other because, as a group, they intended to perform that kind of checking collectively over the children of each family.

Nonetheless he admits that they were only informed of their respective apartments on arrival in Portugal.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-10MAY.htm

[John]

For information, this is a new thread.