According to Kate McCann the choice was accidental killng or homicide.

[ShiningInLuz]

Why bring up the subject of a light sentence if it wasn't seen as some sort of inducement to confess and get this whole inconvenience put to bed asap?

Why not?

I was under the impression that concealing a body and faking a major crime scene would have attracted a sentence much longer than it apparently does.

[Mr Gray]

Why not?

I was under the impression that concealing a body and faking a major crime scene would have attracted a sentence much longer than it apparently does.

Amaral believed  in the accidental death........I don't see why it is  a problem for posters to see that the pj would try and persuade Kate to confess..

[ShiningInLuz]

its called a plea bargain and it is obvious kate was offered one...no one has suggested the red highlight

A plea bargain is offering to accept confession to a lesser charge rather than pursuing a more serious one.

If the so-called offer was to accept a confession to body disposal/scene faking, then by definition it means the alternative is more serious.  And in this instance, that means a non-accidental death.

So, the PJ could be explaining what Kate would get for body disposal - no offer.  Or they could be offering that they would not investigate a non-accidental death if Kate copped a charge hinging on accidental death.

If no-one is suggesting non-accidental death, then there is no plea bargain to consider.

[Mr Gray]

A plea bargain is offering to accept confession to a lesser charge rather than pursuing a more serious one.

If the so-called offer was to accept a confession to body disposal/scene faking, then by definition it means the alternative is more serious.  And in this instance, that means a non-accidental death.

So, the PJ could be explaining what Kate would get for body disposal - no offer.  Or they could be offering that they would not investigate a non-accidental death if Kate copped a charge hinging on accidental death.

If no-one is suggesting non-accidental death, then there is no plea bargain to consider.

according to the quite clear account from Philomena...Kate was told that if she did not confess she might be persued for  amore serious crime....pressure was applied to make her confess...it was typical plea bargaining tactics but a bluff...there was no way kate would be persued for a more serious crime

[Alfie]

Why not?

I was under the impression that concealing a body and faking a major crime scene would have attracted a sentence much longer than it apparently does.

Why would you feel the need to mention to a suspect that the crime you describe would only get them 2 years in prison, if not to make the suspect think, "oh really?  That's not so bad, worth getting this huge burden of guilt off my shoulder, should be out in a year, then I can get on with my life, but what if I don't confess now - then I might end up getting a stiffer sentence, hmm..."

[ShiningInLuz]

Amaral believed  in the accidental death........I don't see why it is  a problem for posters to see that the pj would try and persuade Kate to confess..

To be honest, what Amaral believed in is irrelevant to the discussion.

Any policeman considering the evidence would have had to leave open the possibility of non-accidental death, given that nothing proves that non-accidental death was impossible.

I don't see it as unlikely that in a police interview, the officers would prefer to get a confession.  Mind you, I can't see any posters having that 'problem' - perhaps you could name your sources.

"According to KM the choice was accidental killing or homicide."  Was it?  If I had murdered someone, and I was offered a plea bargain of accidental death + body disposal, it would tell me that the police were uncertain about what happened.  If I was innocent, it would tell me that the police were uncertain about what had happened, irrespective of how lightly that crime was regarded.

[Mr Gray]

To be honest, what Amaral believed in is irrelevant to the discussion.

Any policeman considering the evidence would have had to leave open the possibility of non-accidental death, given that nothing proves that non-accidental death was impossible.

I don't see it as unlikely that in a police interview, the officers would prefer to get a confession.  Mind you, I can't see any posters having that 'problem' - perhaps you could name your sources.

"According to KM the choice was accidental killing or homicide."  Was it?  If I had murdered someone, and I was offered a plea bargain of accidental death + body disposal, it would tell me that the police were uncertain about what happened.  If I was innocent, it would tell me that the police were uncertain about what had happened, irrespective of how lightly that crime was regarded.

What amaral believed is relevant a he was involved..and we know the rest of the pj shared his views. According to amaral they were not considering murder...it seems you agree that a confession would have been most welcome to get the case sorted...and a plea bargain is what was offered in order to secure it

[ShiningInLuz]

Why would you feel the need to mention to a suspect that the crime you describe would only get them 2 years in prison, if not to make the suspect think, "oh really?  That's not so bad, worth getting this huge burden of guilt off my shoulder, should be out in a year, then I can get on with my life, but what if I don't confess now - then I might end up getting a stiffer sentence, hmm..."

Huge burden of guilt?  What huge burden of guilt?

If Kate was innocent, why accept 2 years in a Portuguese prison, and shame for the rest of her life as the child disposer?  Not to mention the guilty party getting away with it.  Plus ending any search for a live child.

If Kate was guilty of body disposal, her choice was admit it or fight it.  If she fought it, she ran the risk of a more serious charge of murder.  Anyone in that situation would weigh up the evidence and the options in a private discussion with their lawyer.

If Kate was guilty of murder, then 2 years in prison might seem attractive.  But I cannot see police downgrading at that point from a very serious crime to one that is comparatively minor.  There was still Gerry to question.

[Alfie]

Huge burden of guilt?  What huge burden of guilt?

If Kate was innocent, why accept 2 years in a Portuguese prison, and shame for the rest of her life as the child disposer?  Not to mention the guilty party getting away with it.  Plus ending any search for a live child.

If Kate was guilty of body disposal, her choice was admit it or fight it.  If she fought it, she ran the risk of a more serious charge of murder.  Anyone in that situation would weigh up the evidence and the options in a private discussion with their lawyer.

If Kate was guilty of murder, then 2 years in prison might seem attractive.  But I cannot see police downgrading at that point from a very serious crime to one that is comparatively minor.  There was still Gerry to question.

If Kate was guilty don't you think she would be shouldering a huge burden of guilt?

Anyway, this may (or may not) help to settle the argument. sorry, discussion.

https://www.fairtrials.org/arrested-abroad/arrested-in/arrested-in-portuga/

7. Can I plead guilty in Portugal? What are the consequences of pleading guilty?


There is no system of plea bargain in Portugal (i.e. you cannot make a deal with the prosecutor and offer to confess your guilt in exchange for a lesser sentence). However, if you confess your guilt and show regret for what you have done, this can be taken into account by the court when it makes a decision on your sentence.

If you acknowledge your guilt (i.e. you give a confession in open court and decide not to challenge the accusations made against you), and all of the following criteria are met:
1.The crime is punishable with a prison sentence of a maximum of five years;
2.The judge has no reason to believe that the confession hasn’t been made freely ;
3.The judge has no reason to believe that you are not responsible for your acts;
4.The judge has no reason to suspect that the admission is untrue; and
5.If there are co-defendants, all must plead guilty;

in such cases, there will be fewer court costs, no evidence has to be produced on the facts and the proceedings will take less time.

If the above criteria are not met, the trial will go on and the judge will determine whether it is necessary to produce evidence on the facts to which you have pleaded guilty

[Alfie]

Huge burden of guilt?  What huge burden of guilt?

If Kate was innocent, why accept 2 years in a Portuguese prison, and shame for the rest of her life as the child disposer?  Not to mention the guilty party getting away with it.  Plus ending any search for a live child.

If Kate was guilty of body disposal, her choice was admit it or fight it.  If she fought it, she ran the risk of a more serious charge of murder.  Anyone in that situation would weigh up the evidence and the options in a private discussion with their lawyer.

If Kate was guilty of murder, then 2 years in prison might seem attractive.  But I cannot see police downgrading at that point from a very serious crime to one that is comparatively minor.  There was still Gerry to question.

I can, if they have given up on ever finding a body and it means the likelihood of the case being put to bed with minimum of fuss and cost, and a nice big "case solved" stamp on the files.

[ShiningInLuz]

What amaral believed is relevant a he was involved..and we know the rest of the pj shared his views. According to amaral they were not considering murder...it seems you agree that a confession would have been most welcome to get the case sorted...and a plea bargain is what was offered in order to secure it

What plea bargain?

Kate was to get the appropriate sentence for the crime she allegedly committed?  Where's the plea bargain in that?

What I know of 'the rest of the PJ' comes mainly from Amaral.  Do you have a better source on their thinking?  If so, please share, otherwise we are into speculation.

Who authorised the offer?  Who made the offer?  Why is that offer better than what would otherwise occur?

Kate's book says that if she confessed to body disposal she'd get 2 years, much less than if she was charged with homicide.

This 'offer' was put to her the evening before she became an arguido.  Which gave Kate, Gerry and their lawyer to think about it, plus to contemplate the 'evidence' against her (dogs and DNA).

It is clear that a confession was the preferred route.  Shortly after Gerry's arguido interview, they were told they were free to leave Portugal, and promptly did so.  I can't see that happening if the PJ were confident there was enough to go to trial.

As a minimum, one needs to show that body disposal normally attracts significantly more than 2 years and that whoever made such an offer had to power to implement it.

Kate's book does not cover normal sentence for body disposal v 2 year deal.  It covers accidental death v homicide.

Page 243 and thereabouts.

[ShiningInLuz]

If Kate was guilty don't you think she would be shouldering a huge burden of guilt?

Anyway, this may (or may not) help to settle the argument. sorry, discussion.

https://www.fairtrials.org/arrested-abroad/arrested-in/arrested-in-portuga/

7. Can I plead guilty in Portugal? What are the consequences of pleading guilty?


There is no system of plea bargain in Portugal (i.e. you cannot make a deal with the prosecutor and offer to confess your guilt in exchange for a lesser sentence). However, if you confess your guilt and show regret for what you have done, this can be taken into account by the court when it makes a decision on your sentence.

If you acknowledge your guilt (i.e. you give a confession in open court and decide not to challenge the accusations made against you), and all of the following criteria are met:
1.The crime is punishable with a prison sentence of a maximum of five years;
2.The judge has no reason to believe that the confession hasn’t been made freely ;
3.The judge has no reason to believe that you are not responsible for your acts;
4.The judge has no reason to suspect that the admission is untrue; and
5.If there are co-defendants, all must plead guilty;

in such cases, there will be fewer court costs, no evidence has to be produced on the facts and the proceedings will take less time.

If the above criteria are not met, the trial will go on and the judge will determine whether it is necessary to produce evidence on the facts to which you have pleaded guilty

This does clarify greatly  If it is accurate, and if it applied in 2007, it clarifies greatly.  Excellent find.  Many thanks!

"There is no system of plea bargain in Portugal (i.e. you cannot make a deal with the prosecutor and offer to confess your guilt in exchange for a lesser sentence). However, if you confess your guilt and show regret for what you have done, this can be taken into account by the court when it makes a decision on your sentence."

So there is no legal method in Portugal for making any variant of the deals recently discussed.  It's a confess - repent - and hope type of process.

Now that makes me wonder why the lawyer was unaware of this, or chose not to advise that such deals had no standing.

[ShiningInLuz]

I can, if they have given up on ever finding a body and it means the likelihood of the case being put to bed with minimum of fuss and cost, and a nice big "case solved" stamp on the files.

Given the length of time the case continued from this stage, it is hardly an accurate reflection of attitude within the PJ.

[Mr Gray]

What plea bargain?

Kate was to get the appropriate sentence for the crime she allegedly committed?  Where's the plea bargain in that?

What I know of 'the rest of the PJ' comes mainly from Amaral.  Do you have a better source on their thinking?  If so, please share, otherwise we are into speculation.

Who authorised the offer?  Who made the offer?  Why is that offer better than what would otherwise occur?

Kate's book says that if she confessed to body disposal she'd get 2 years, much less than if she was charged with homicide.

This 'offer' was put to her the evening before she became an arguido.  Which gave Kate, Gerry and their lawyer to think about it, plus to contemplate the 'evidence' against her (dogs and DNA).

It is clear that a confession was the preferred route.  Shortly after Gerry's arguido interview, they were told they were free to leave Portugal, and promptly did so.  I can't see that happening if the PJ were confident there was enough to go to trial.

As a minimum, one needs to show that body disposal normally attracts significantly more than 2 years and that whoever made such an offer had to power to implement it.

Kate's book does not cover normal sentence for body disposal v 2 year deal.  It covers accidental death v homicide.

Page 243 and thereabouts.

there wasn't enough to go to trial because as the archiving report states all the vidence used to make the mccanns arguidos was ....amara;l and his team knew if they could persuade kate to confess they would not need any evidence...hence the offer

[ShiningInLuz]

there wasn't enough to go to trial because as the archiving report states all the vidence used to make the mccanns arguidos was ....amara;l and his team knew if they could persuade kate to confess they would not need any evidence...hence the offer

Speak to Alfie.

He's just produced a cite that such an offer could not, legally, be made. No plea bargains in Portugal.