Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?

[Caroline]

Penalties for possession, supply and production of cannabis:

https://www.gov.uk/penalties-drug-possession-dealing

I don't understand why JM's cheque fraud, the OCP burglary and the visit to Amsterdam with the emphasis on staying in an expensive hotel and eating out are all mentioned in the 2002 CoA doc but no mention of the cannabis  &%+((£

I think EP threatened JM, SB, LR and JR with drug related offences unless they cooperated.  This is the reason we don't hear about it.  JB was bailed over OCP.  Why were charges not pressed about the cannabis? Why didn't EP make reference to the cannabis production, supply and possession in JB's interviews?  The maximum penalties are severe - see above link.

It is relevant to the case because he was producing and supplying for financial gain.

If someone threatened to prosecute you for cannabis offences unless you helped put away someone you cared about - what would you do?

[scipio_usmc]

If someone threatened to prosecute you for cannabis offences unless you helped put away someone you cared about - what would you do?

EP only learned about their supposed drug use when they admitted to it while EP was questioning them about something else.

[Holly Goodhead]

If someone threatened to prosecute you for cannabis offences unless you helped put away someone you cared about - what would you do?

I don't think it was a case that EP simply threatened prosecution witnesses with drug related offences.  I think EP sold it to them VERY HARD that JB was responsible leaving them with the distinct impression he was responsible:

From JB's police interviews:

"I will tell you now that it has been proved that your sister Sheila did not kill herself and in fact she was murdered along with your parents and the twins, is there anything you wish to say about this?" 

This was a lie.  The pathologist has always maintained that he was unable to say either way whether SC was murdered or took her own life.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=296.0;attach=1258

46. From the pathological evidence alone, the pathologist could not say, one way or the other, whether Mrs Caffell had been murdered or had taken her own life.

http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html

I've never been involved in any criminality and had very little dealings with the police.  I vaguely remember reporting some vandalism to a car and was a bit disappointed when they seemed uninterested!  Oh and I've been stopped a couple of times for speeding. Today I wouldn't accept any authority figure at face value but 30 years ago if the police told me a boyfriend I had just broken up with had murdered his family I would probably believe them.  I can quite imagine a situation where EP used the above and more along with telling JM and others the relatives all think JB is responsible.  What was she to think?  Bearing in mind she was probably traumatised by the whole thing identifying the bodies etc. 

[Holly Goodhead]

EP only learned about their supposed drug use when they admitted to it while EP was questioning them about something else.

It's possible, and likely imo, that EP planted listening devices at Bourtree Cottage, Morsehead Mansions and 42 Catherham Road and were one step ahead.

[Holly Goodhead]

EP only learned about their supposed drug use when they admitted to it while EP was questioning them about something else.

According to JM the police or drug squad visited JB's cottage to look at the cannabis plants pre murders.

[Caroline]

I don't think it was a case that EP simply threatened prosecution witnesses with drug related offences.  I think EP sold it to them VERY HARD that JB was responsible leaving them with the distinct impression he was responsible:

From JB's police interviews:

"I will tell you now that it has been proved that your sister Sheila did not kill herself and in fact she was murdered along with your parents and the twins, is there anything you wish to say about this?" 

This was a lie.  The pathologist has always maintained that he was unable to say either way whether SC was murdered or took her own life.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=296.0;attach=1258

46. From the pathological evidence alone, the pathologist could not say, one way or the other, whether Mrs Caffell had been murdered or had taken her own life.

http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html

I've never been involved in any criminality and had very little dealings with the police.  I vaguely remember reporting some vandalism to a car and was a bit disappointed when they seemed uninterested!  Oh and I've been stopped a couple of times for speeding. Today I wouldn't accept any authority figure at face value but 30 years ago if the police told me a boyfriend I had just broken up with had murdered his family I would probably believe them.  I can quite imagine a situation where EP used the above and more along with telling JM and others the relatives all think JB is responsible.  What was she to think?  Bearing in mind she was probably traumatised by the whole thing identifying the bodies etc.

I can say with certainty, that if it were someone I had know for two years and had no reason to believe he was responsible, I'd have told them where to go. But not only did they get JM to go along with it, thay manage another three? Isn't it just another case of everone except Jeremy telling lies?

[Holly Goodhead]

I can say with certainty, that if it were someone I had know for two years and had no reason to believe he was responsible, I'd have told them where to go. But not only did they get JM to go along with it, thay manage another three? Isn't it just another case of everone except Jeremy telling lies?

Why wouldn't they lie if EP sold them the idea JB was responsible plus they saved themselves from a criminal record in the process?  Would JM, SB, LR and JR want to think of a mass murderer and child killer walking away with his parents estate?

Plus if any nagging doubt existed, I believe you have a degree in psychology so you will no doubt be familiar with Stanley Milgram's famous experiment on the conflict between obedience to authority and personal conscience:

"Stanley Milgram's experiments on obedience to authority are among the most important psychological studies of this century.  Perhaps because of the enduring significance of the findings—the surprising ease with which ordinary persons can be commanded to act destructively against an innocent individual by a legitimate authority—it continues to claim the attention of psychologists and other social scientists, as well as the general public. This study continues to inspire valuable research and analysis."

[Caroline]

Why wouldn't they lie if EP sold them the idea JB was responsible plus they saved themselves from a criminal record in the process?  Would JM, SB, LR and JR want to think of a mass murderer and child killer walking away with his parents estate?

Plus if any nagging doubt existed, I believe you have a degree in psychology so you will no doubt be familiar with Stanley Milgram's famous experiment on the conflict between obedience to authority and personal conscience:

"Stanley Milgram's experiments on obedience to authority are among the most important psychological studies of this century.  Perhaps because of the enduring significance of the findings—the surprising ease with which ordinary persons can be commanded to act destructively against an innocent individual by a legitimate authority—it continues to claim the attention of psychologists and other social scientists, as well as the general public. This study continues to inspire valuable research and analysis."

If Jeremy Bamber wasn't the kind of person that they could see murdering his family, then of course they wouldn't lie - I know I certainly wouldn't. However,  if he was/is, then it's more likely that they didn't need to lie and what they was true.

Yes I am familiar with Milgram and his electric shock experiment. However, there would have been a completely different outcome if the experiment involved shocking individuals that the subject was close to.

[Holly Goodhead]

If Jeremy Bamber wasn't the kind of person that they could see murdering his family, then of course they wouldn't lie - I know I certainly wouldn't. However,  if he was/is, then it's more likely that they didn't need to lie and what they was true.

Yes I am familiar with Milgram and his electric shock experiment. However, there would have been a completely different outcome if the experiment involved shocking individuals that the subject was close to.

If JB was the kind of person they could see murdering his family, then why get involved with him in the first place? 

Have you got any evidence showing the conflict between obedience to authority and personal conscience is dependent upon closeness?

[Holly Goodhead]

If Jeremy Bamber wasn't the kind of person that they could see murdering his family, then of course they wouldn't lie - I know I certainly wouldn't. However,  if he was/is, then it's more likely that they didn't need to lie and what they was true.

Yes I am familiar with Milgram and his electric shock experiment. However, there would have been a completely different outcome if the experiment involved shocking individuals that the subject was close to.

If the following isn't a lie how else can it be explained?

In JM's WS of 8th/9th Sep she states after she told SB they never discussed again:

"From that day to the present I haven't spoken to Susan about what Jeremy told me regarding the killings".

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=284.0;attach=1128

This contradicts with SB's WS's of 10th Sep:

"After she first told me about the shootings both Julie and I spoke about it on a number of occasions"

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=529.0;attach=1665

[Caroline]

If the following isn't a lie how else can it be explained?

In JM's WS of 8th/9th Sep she states after she told SB they never discussed again:

"From that day to the present I haven't spoken to Susan about what Jeremy told me regarding the killings".

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=284.0;attach=1128

This contradicts with SB's WS's of 10th Sep:

"After she first told me about the shootings both Julie and I spoke about it on a number of occasions"

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=529.0;attach=1665

I'm not sure I ever said that Julie  (or Susan) were completely truthful about everything (the bank fraud issue is also suspect). However, it is a massive leap to then suggest that they (and two others) lied to put Bamber away simply to escape a few petty charges and to keep such a thing quiet for 30 years, knowing he might be innocent.

Add to that, the cast of thousands who would also have to be lying (starting with West and Bonnet) to keep such a MOJ going.

[Myster]

Susan Battersby is probably referring to the first time Julie told her about the shootings soon after they occurred on the 7th. August, (i.e. when in their Lewisham house/flat/bedroom), not three weeks later on the 27th. August in the restaurant when she revealed more and elaborated on Jeremy Bamber's involvement.

[Holly Goodhead]

Susan Battersby is probably referring to the first time Julie told her about the shootings soon after they occurred on the 7th. August, (i.e. when in their Lewisham house/flat/bedroom), not three weeks later on the 27th. August in the restaurant when she revealed more and elaborated on Jeremy Bamber's involvement.

That's not how SB's WS reads:

"After she first told me about the shootings both Julie and I spoke about it on a number of occasions.  When these times were I cannot remember but as we talked about it I asked her more questions.  I asked her how Jeremy had found a mercenary..."

[Myster]

That's not how SB's WS reads:

"After she first told me about the shootings both Julie and I spoke about it on a number of occasions.  When these times were I cannot remember but as we talked about it I asked her more questions.  I asked her how Jeremy had found a mercenary..."

It's obvious to ME that Susan is talking about when she was FIRST told about the shootings, i.e. on the 7th or very soon after, and between then and the 27th they discussed it on a number of occasions! After the 27th Julie then says that they didn't talk any more about it.

[Holly Goodhead]

I'm not sure I ever said that Julie  (or Susan) were completely truthful about everything (the bank fraud issue is also suspect). However, it is a massive leap to then suggest that they (and two others) lied to put Bamber away simply to escape a few petty charges and to keep such a thing quiet for 30 years, knowing he might be innocent.

Add to that, the cast of thousands who would also have to be lying (starting with West and Bonnet) to keep such a MOJ going.

Supplying cannabis (class B drugs) is a serious crime. 

I think all concerned genuinely believed, and probably continue to believe, JB is guilty as charged.  If the police told prosecution witnesses SC was shot twice and this ruled out suicide why would they disbelieve the police?  They would not have access to the pathologist or his reports.  There paths may not even have crossed with the pathologists giving evidence at trial if they gave evidence on different days.  They would be unable to google 'suicide multiple gunshot wounds'.  I guess they could take themselves off to a library to thumb through forensic science books...

Who are the casts of thousands who have to be lying?  Where do West and Bonnet fit in with lying?