Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?

[Caroline]

Why are my posts about the opium poppies and special licence based on written testimony from Dr Ian Craig and Chief Sup George Harris sounding like one of Mike's theories?

If NB was genuinely worried pre tragedy, as described by BW, there could be many reasons.

So why are you ignoring the obvious in favour of him growing illegal opium. By your own words, you stated that Jeremy told the police Nevill had a licence. How do you know they didn't look into it and found that 'Nevill had a licence'? Just because the evidence of things isn't posted on the forums, doesn't mean such aspects weren't considered and investigated.

[Holly Goodhead]

So why are you ignoring the obvious in favour of him growing illegal opium. By your own words, you stated that Jeremy told the police Nevill had a licence. How do you know they didn't look into it and found that 'Nevill had a licence'? Just because the evidence of things isn't posted on the forums, doesn't mean such aspects weren't considered and investigated.

What is the obvious?  I don't believe there's an obvious without knowledge of an investigation and an outcome.

It isn't illegal for a farmer to grow opium poppies.  You or I could go out today and purchase some from a garden centre for growing in the garden. The law states a licence is not required for cultivation of poppies ie a farmer growing.  A licence is required by the pharmaceutical company  wishing to extract opium for medicinal products.  Johnson Matthey plc and its subsidiary companies (MacFarlan Smith being one) have a monopoly in the UK.  Farmers  cultivate and Johnson Matthey send in a special combine to extract and transport.  The UK government issued the first licence in the noughties some 15 plus years after the tragedy at WHF.

I don't believe I'm ignoring anything.  I've put forward as many reasons as I can think of including JB lying.

[Myster]

What is the obvious?  I don't believe there's an obvious without knowledge of an investigation and an outcome.

It isn't illegal for a farmer to grow opium poppies.  You or I could go out today and purchase some from a garden centre for growing in the garden. The law states a licence is not required for cultivation of poppies ie a farmer growing.  A licence is required by the pharmaceutical company  wishing to extract opium for medicinal products.  Johnson Matthey plc and its subsidiary companies (MacFarlan Smith being one) have a monopoly in the UK.  Farmers  cultivate and Johnson Matthey send in a special combine to extract and transport.  The UK government issued the first licence in the noughties some 15 plus years after the tragedy at WHF.

I don't believe I'm ignoring anything.  I've put forward as many reasons as I can think of including JB lying.

Eye-opener... http://www.henleystandard.co.uk/news/news.php?id=1503140

https://philipstrange.wordpress.com/tag/johnson-matthey/

[Caroline]

Eye-opener... http://www.henleystandard.co.uk/news/news.php?id=1503140

https://philipstrange.wordpress.com/tag/johnson-matthey/

I think this was established right back at the beginning of the thread  - Holly doesn't want to give up on it though. They clearly weren't opium poppies. 

[Holly Goodhead]

I think this was established right back at the beginning of the thread  - Holly doesn't want to give up on it though. They clearly weren't opium poppies. 

There's lots of new info in the links Myster has provided about the history of opium poppy growing in the UK and processing by pharmaceutical company Johnson Matthey. 

What don't I want to give up on?

Caroline I don't believe you are able to positively identify the plant species under question anymore than I can unless you have access to some privileged info.  What makes you so sure they weren't opium poppies?  There's some evidence opium poppies were grown at WHF.  This in itself means nothing since it's perfectly legal to grow them.

[Opal]

If the police found they were  opium poppies and JB wasn't lying when he said this......who would they having prosecuted...should they wish to?  It couldn't have been NB who was the tenant as he had just been murdered!  JB had interests in Osea Road, but the farm was tenanted to NB and JB.

[Holly Goodhead]

If the police found they were  opium poppies and JB wasn't lying when he said this......who would they having prosecuted...should they wish to?  It couldn't have been NB who was the tenant as he had just been murdered!  JB had interests in Osea Road, but the farm was tenanted to NB and JB.

Opal I'm obviously not making myself clear - it isn't illegal for anyone in UK, farmer or not, to grow opium poppies.  NB could legitimately devote significant acreage to opium poppies to produce poppy seeds for culinary purposes or for use in ornamental garden displays.  But JB said WHF had a special licence to grow opium poppies for the  pharmaceutical industry.  Yes of course JB could have lied for whatever reason(s) but why didn't EP pick up on and use against JB at trial?

[Caroline]

Opal I'm obviously not making myself clear - it isn't illegal for anyone in UK, farmer or not, to grow opium poppies.  NB could legitimately devote significant acreage to opium poppies to produce poppy seeds for culinary purposes or for use in ornamental garden displays.  But JB said WHF had a special licence to grow opium poppies for the  pharmaceutical industry.  Yes of course JB could have lied for whatever reason(s) but why didn't EP pick up on and use against JB at trial?

Because it had nothing to do with the crime, so why would it be mentioned? Yes, anyone can grown opium poppies but "but any processing of the plant to extract narcotic material is controlled and can only be carried out under licence." http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/2069434.Hampshire_____the_opium_poppy_capital_of_the_UK/

So if it isn't illegal to grow the poppies, why would this affect NB's decision to to call the police when "Sheila went crazy and got the gun"?

[Wonderfulspam]

My first poppy this year.

All round to my place for some dragon chasing 

[rotti]

My first poppy this year.

All round to my place for some dragon chasing 

very whitty,

[Holly Goodhead]

My first poppy this year.

All round to my place for some dragon chasing 

If the Afghans have the means and wherewithal to turn poppies into heroin I'm sure it's possible in Little Britain?  I think I recall police raids on heroin factories/labs in UK?

[Holly Goodhead]

Because it had nothing to do with the crime, so why would it be mentioned? Yes, anyone can grown opium poppies but "but any processing of the plant to extract narcotic material is controlled and can only be carried out under licence." http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/2069434.Hampshire_____the_opium_poppy_capital_of_the_UK/

So if it isn't illegal to grow the poppies, why would this affect NB's decision to to call the police when "Sheila went crazy and got the gun"?

It is case relevant.  Upon being told his family had been murdered with SC taking her own life, one of JB's early responses was to walk 1/4 mile to the field where the claimed opium poppies were growing and pick some.  When he was then seen by Dr Craig with the poppies in his hand he said the farm had a licence to grow opium poppies for the pharmaceutical industry.  Based on what we now know this can't be true unless possibly they were for shipping overseas to a foreign pharmaceutical company.  I've no idea what the rules, regulations and  laws were then surrounding such a transaction.   Dr Craig asked Chief Sup Harris if he knew about the licence and he didn't. 

Dr Craig and Chief Sup Harris looked at the poppies in a small area of the field.  If there number was small eg own use for gardening display this would not fit with industrial scale production for the pharmaceutical industry and would immediately arouse suspicion.

I doubt UK farmers would grow opium poppies commercially for their seeds (bread) or flowers (gardening) alone as other crops are more profitable.  As I understand it poppy seeds are a by-product when they're grown for medicines.  So assuming the field contained a substantial number of opium poppies (industrial scale) who was the intended purchaser and what did they intend to use them for?

I'm happy to keep an open mind.  I can live with ambiguity and it is certainly ambiguous:

- UK farmers didn't start growing opium poppies for the pharmaceutical industry until the noughties.

- In 1985 JB said WHF had a licence to grow opium poppies for the pharmaceutical industry.

I accept JB might be lying but if he had just murdered his family why would he want to attract attention by knowingly making false claims about something that wasn't the focus of anyone's attention?

I can think of many possibilities as I have above about shipping but there's little point in speculating. 

Is it possible you can write and ask him?  I have to say, and I hope you will not be offended, to my mind the above is potentially more case relevant than the wallet you queried with him. 

[Caroline]

It is case relevant.  Upon being told his family had been murdered with SC taking her own life, one of JB's early responses was to walk 1/4 mile to the field where the claimed opium poppies were growing and pick some.  When he was then seen by Dr Craig with the poppies in his hand he said the farm had a licence to grow opium poppies for the pharmaceutical industry.  Based on what we now know this can't be true unless possibly they were for shipping overseas to a foreign pharmaceutical company.  I've no idea what the rules, regulations and  laws were then surrounding such a transaction.   Dr Craig asked Chief Sup Harris if he knew about the licence and he didn't. 

Dr Craig and Chief Sup Harris looked at the poppies in a small area of the field.  If there number was small eg own use for gardening display this would not fit with industrial scale production for the pharmaceutical industry and would immediately arouse suspicion.

I doubt UK farmers would grow opium poppies commercially for their seeds (bread) or flowers (gardening) alone as other crops are more profitable.  As I understand it poppy seeds are a by-product when they're grown for medicines.  So assuming the field contained a substantial number of opium poppies (industrial scale) who was the intended purchaser and what did they intend to use them for?

I'm happy to keep an open mind.  I can live with ambiguity and it is certainly ambiguous:

- UK farmers didn't start growing opium poppies for the pharmaceutical industry until the noughties.

- In 1985 JB said WHF had a licence to grow opium poppies for the pharmaceutical industry.

I accept JB might be lying but if he had just murdered his family why would he want to attract attention by knowingly making false claims about something that wasn't the focus of anyone's attention?

I can think of many possibilities as I have above about shipping but there's little point in speculating. 

Is it possible you can write and ask him?  I have to say, and I hope you will not be offended, to my mind the above is potentially more case relevant than the wallet you queried with him.

I won't be writing to him Holly - I thought you wrote to him? The wallet is relevant because it is likely that he searched the house for ready cash - it was the first thing he looked for when re-entering WHF and was so annoyed that it was missing, he called the police and accused them of stealing it. The poppies are relevant because?

[Opal]

Opal I'm obviously not making myself clear - it isn't illegal for anyone in UK, farmer or not, to grow opium poppies.  NB could legitimately devote significant acreage to opium poppies to produce poppy seeds for culinary purposes or for use in ornamental garden displays.  But JB said WHF had a special licence to grow opium poppies for the  pharmaceutical industry.  Yes of course JB could have lied for whatever reason(s) but why didn't EP pick up on and use against JB at trial?

As I said before Holly....JB may not have been lying, I also mentioned in a post  it isn't illegal to grow opium poppies.


I've found the following in Roger Wilkes book 'Blood Relations'.... Chapter 3 page 51

'Nevill Bamber was a shrewd and adventurous farmer. Anticipating a decline in the market for traditional cereals because of over- production, he was the first in the Blackwater area to see the potential of experimental crops such as borage,evening primrose, fenugreek and even opium poppies for use in alternative medicine preparations. This innovative streak was the subject of much approving comment. George Nichollls, a surveyor from Witham who carried out the annual valuation of the farm and it's contents for tax purposes, thought it augured well for the future. He described Nevill as 'a happy and considerate gentleman'.  When he visited the farm in June 1985 to discuss a rent review, Nevill told him how pleased he was with the way Jeremy was shaping up as a farmer. Indeed, when - a month after the murders - Nicholls visited the White House to make his annual valuation and stock take, he found the farm generally to be in good heart'.

JB also states - page 53 Blood Relations - Farming is very much a feel. It's experience with each field, and luck with the weather. I was happy to be Dad's understudy. It worked really well. We both had progressive ideas about diversifying our crop portfolio.

Sounds like all was above board with the opium poppies, and with all concerned.  Hope this helps.

[APRIL]

As I said before Holly....JB may not have been lying, I also mentioned in a post  it isn't illegal to grow opium poppies.


I've found the following in Roger Wilkes book 'Blood Relations'.... Chapter 3 page 51

'Nevill Bamber was a shrewd and adventurous farmer. Anticipating a decline in the market for traditional cereals because of over- production, he was the first in the Blackwater area to see the potential of experimental crops such as borage,evening primrose, fenugreek and even opium poppies for use in alternative medicine preparations. This innovative streak was the subject of much approving comment. George Nichollls, a surveyor from Witham who carried out the annual valuation of the farm and it's contents for tax purposes, thought it augured well for the future. He described Nevill as 'a happy and considerate gentleman'.  When he visited the farm in June 1985 to discuss a rent review, Nevill told him how pleased he was with the way Jeremy was shaping up as a farmer. Indeed, when - a month after the murders - Nicholls visited the White House to make his annual valuation and stock take, he found the farm generally to be in good heart'.

JB also states - page 53 Blood Relations - Farming is very much a feel. It's experience with each field, and luck with the weather. I was happy to be Dad's understudy. It worked really well. We both had progressive ideas about diversifying our crop portfolio.

Sounds like all was above board with the opium poppies, and with all concerned.  Hope this helps.

Opal, I'm always slightly cautious about from where/whom authors get some of their information -although I can vouch for the description of Nevill's personality because this is what friends of his have told me.

I'm really not convinced that Jeremy was natural farmer material given the amount of time he spent away from it when he could have been working on it. Nevill MAY have been pleased with how Jeremy "was shaping up" but relative to/compared with what, exactly? It may well be that a month after the massacre the farm was found "generally to be in good heart" but Jeremy wasn't at it's helm.