Author Topic: Should There Have been An Upper Age Limit For Voters?  (Read 4779 times)

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Offline G-Unit

Re: Should There Have been An Upper Age Limit For Voters?
« Reply #45 on: July 07, 2016, 11:12:52 AM »
On the chart at post #41 every country from Malta down takes more from the EU than they pay in and that includes all Eastern European former Soviet Bloc States, they are all net beneficiaries. 

Interestingly, Portugal, Spain, Poland and Greece top the list of takers!   Isn't it wonderful, the UK, Germany and Holland are effectively subsidising Portugal and Spain, who would have thought it?

You also have to ask why. Why would rich European nations want to share their wealth with poor European nations? The answer seems to be that free movement of labour helps raise productivity in the richer nations.

We are told we need immigration of working age people to maintain our economy and to pay taxes to maintain our services. What will happen to those countries who appear to be losing their populations? Bulgaria, Romania, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland are losing more people than they are gaining. The richer EU members are gaining more people than they are losing. Are they 'buying' workers?
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Offline John

Re: Should There Have been An Upper Age Limit For Voters?
« Reply #46 on: July 07, 2016, 12:27:25 PM »
You also have to ask why. Why would rich European nations want to share their wealth with poor European nations? The answer seems to be that free movement of labour helps raise productivity in the richer nations.

We are told we need immigration of working age people to maintain our economy and to pay taxes to maintain our services. What will happen to those countries who appear to be losing their populations? Bulgaria, Romania, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland are losing more people than they are gaining. The richer EU members are gaining more people than they are losing. Are they 'buying' workers?

Effectively yes.  Poorer countries within the EU are being starved of their youth. 
« Last Edit: July 07, 2016, 01:01:27 PM by John »
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Offline Carana

Re: Should There Have been An Upper Age Limit For Voters?
« Reply #47 on: July 07, 2016, 12:34:14 PM »
I'm no expert but we clearly pay a lot into the EU. Of course we have a rebate too, negotiated by Mrs Thatcher, but it's not a permanent arrangement. Without the rebate we would be paying more.

I don't understand why we have a Trade deficit of 85 million either. That means EU countries sell more to us than we do to them. I thought the main benefit of Trade deals was to sell, not buy.

There's a chart showing the differences per country here;
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/comment/article-3666465/How-does-EU-need-Britain-s-trade-Brexit-means-ll-out.html



We do have a trade surplus in services sold to EU countries. The development of our economy from manufacturing to services has paid off in that respect.
https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-eu-trade/

Could our service economy compete in the world markets outside the EU? I guess that's the big question, and not one that the service industries and our governments are keen to try.



It's not just about free trade, though. It's also about having political clout in collective decision-making on non-trade issues.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2016, 12:36:39 PM by Carana »

Offline Carana

Re: Should There Have been An Upper Age Limit For Voters?
« Reply #48 on: July 07, 2016, 12:38:02 PM »
Effectively yes.  Poorer countries within the EU are being starved of their youth.

And what generally happens with nationalistic regimes, poverty and a sense of loss of hope of a better life?

Offline G-Unit

Re: Should There Have been An Upper Age Limit For Voters?
« Reply #49 on: July 07, 2016, 12:47:28 PM »
I would be very interested in examples of the UK's 'political clout' within Europe.

I would also like to know how joining the EU will benefit the poorer nations in the long term when they are left with their aging populations and a lack working people to help support them.
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Offline John

Re: Should There Have been An Upper Age Limit For Voters?
« Reply #50 on: July 07, 2016, 01:07:25 PM »
I would be very interested in examples of the UK's 'political clout' within Europe.

I would also like to know how joining the EU will benefit the poorer nations in the long term when they are left with their aging populations and a lack working people to help support them.

History has a habit of biting us in the backside just when we least expect it.  My eldest is visiting Cancun at the moment and he sent me some links about the Mayan civilisation, a lesson for all who think our way of life will never change.

Several attempts have been made to create a Utopian Europe in the past and all have ended in war.  People don't like to lose their national characteristics or their sense of identity, thus why more than 17 million UK citizens voted on 23rd June 2016 to dump the EU and everything its stands for.

I believe trade deals are the least of the EU's problems.  It's disintegration and the threat which that exposes is really what's at stake!
« Last Edit: July 07, 2016, 02:01:57 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. John Lamberton exposes egregious malfeasance by public officials.
The truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Carana

Re: Should There Have been An Upper Age Limit For Voters?
« Reply #51 on: July 07, 2016, 01:22:37 PM »
History has a habit of biting us in the backside just when we least expect it.  My eldest is visiting Cancun at the moment and he sent me some links about the Mayan civilisation, a lesson for all who think our way of life will never change.

Several attempts have been made to create a Utopian Europe in the past and all have ended in war.  People don't like to lose their national characteristics or their sense of identity, thus why more than 17 million UK citizens voted on 23rd June 2016 to dump the EU and everything its stands for.

I believe trade deals are the least of the EU's problems.  It's disintegration and the threat which that exposes is really what's at stake!

What are the potential consequences if the EU collapses and who will that benefit?

Offline G-Unit

Re: Should There Have been An Upper Age Limit For Voters?
« Reply #52 on: July 07, 2016, 01:42:18 PM »
Some see a German dominated EU as a definite threat to all European nations. This was written in June 2014;

Leo McKinstry: Germany controls the EU, we MUST get out NOW
http://www.express.co.uk/comment/columnists/leo-mckinstry/485699/Germany-s-march-to-control-Europe-is-now-relentless
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Offline John

Re: Should There Have been An Upper Age Limit For Voters?
« Reply #53 on: July 07, 2016, 01:58:22 PM »
Some see a German dominated EU as a definite threat to all European nations. This was written in June 2014;

Leo McKinstry: Germany controls the EU, we MUST get out NOW
http://www.express.co.uk/comment/columnists/leo-mckinstry/485699/Germany-s-march-to-control-Europe-is-now-relentless

Germany has grown substantially in power and influence ever since Russia released its control over what was post WW2 East Germany.  It has become the engine house of Europe once more and despite appearances of a democracy within the EU,  Germany actually controls it.  The Germans control just about every aspect of the EU from the European Central Bank to the election of EU Presidents.  The simple truth is that without Germany's money and influence there would be no EU.

Despite claims of scaremongering, the EU is heading for a one State Federal Europe with a European Army controlled by...yes you guessed it...Germany!  I'm afraid the UK vote to leave the party is the fly in the ointment they feared most.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2016, 02:01:52 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. John Lamberton exposes egregious malfeasance by public officials.
The truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Should There Have been An Upper Age Limit For Voters?
« Reply #54 on: July 07, 2016, 05:31:58 PM »
It's very difficult for anyone to argue that all the members of the EU are equal. Each new treaty draws the countries in further and this vote could lead to the EU making it more difficult for a country to get out in future. It's always wise to judge a situation by what the facts tell us, not by what people say. Judging by what I've learned the UK should get out and take their chances.  Money is desirable, but not at the expense of freedom.
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Offline Davel

Re: Should There Have been An Upper Age Limit For Voters?
« Reply #55 on: July 07, 2016, 05:37:07 PM »
Germany has grown substantially in power and influence ever since Russia released its control over what was post WW2 East Germany.  It has become the engine house of Europe once more and despite appearances of a democracy within the EU,  Germany actually controls it.  The Germans control just about every aspect of the EU from the European Central Bank to the election of EU Presidents.  The simple truth is that without Germany's money and influence there would be no EU.

Despite claims of scaremongering, the EU is heading for a one State Federal Europe with a European Army controlled by...yes you guessed it...Germany!  I'm afraid the UK vote to leave the party is the fly in the ointment they feared most.

absolutely right and they are still going to want us to buy their cars so I see them being happy to do a trade deal ...if it comes to it
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Offline Carana

Re: Should There Have been An Upper Age Limit For Voters?
« Reply #56 on: July 07, 2016, 06:03:56 PM »
absolutely right and they are still going to want us to buy their cars so I see them being happy to do a trade deal ...if it comes to it

Quite possibly... but at least one "European" car company has a UK subsidiary headquarters (BMW which owns Rolls Royce and the Mini).

http://www.am-online.com/news/2014/2/14/relocations-for-bmw-and-honda-uk-headquarters/34428/

And other non-European car companies appear to have substantial UK-based manufacturing plants, the majority of whose production appears to have been for export, with the EU being the biggest trading partner, if I've understood this correctly.

I haven't looked into the import side of the equation yet, though (so there could be yet another misleading factoid floating around).



UK car manufacturing hits 10-year high in 2015

    21 January 2016
    From the section Business

Image copyright PA

Car manufacturing in the UK has hit a 10-year high, with more vehicles exported than ever before, according to the industry's trade group.

The Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders said almost 1.6 million cars were built in 2015, up 3.9% on 2014.

Nearly four out of five cars were exported, up by 2.7% on 2014, despite falls in sales to China and Russia.

But this was offset by economic recovery in Europe, where demand for UK-built cars increased by 11% in 2015.

SMMT chief executive Mike Hawes: "Despite export challenges in some key markets such as Russia and China, foreign demand for British-built cars has been strong, reaching record export levels in the past year.

"Europe is our biggest trading partner and the UK's membership of the European Union is vital for the automotive sector in order to secure future growth and jobs."


Production of the Mini rose by 12.4% last year to 201,000 and Toyota produced 190,000 cars, up 10.4%.

Vauxhall's production rose by 9.5% to 85,000, and Jaguar Land Rover saw a 9% rise to 489,000.

However, Nissan recorded a 4.7% reduction, to 476,000, and Honda was down by 2%, to 119,000).
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-35368047




Offline blonk

Re: Should There Have been An Upper Age Limit For Voters?
« Reply #57 on: July 11, 2016, 11:48:39 PM »
What are the potential consequences if the EU collapses and who will that benefit?
27 countries and their people will all benefit by...
* being free again to run their own countries,
* set their own bank interest
* and tax rates etc.,
* be able to make their own trade deals without 27 countries having to be consulted and taking years to complete,
* be free of the stifling bureaucracy that snags up industry and enterprise and has led to economic stagnation in the E.U. and mass unemployment in some eurozone countries, and
* be free of having to send their M.E.P.s all over Europe to sit in TWO Parliaments where their votes are merely advisory and have no legal effect whatsoever.

All good.

The only downside is that manufacturers of EU flags and a few thousand MEPs and Eurocrats will be out of a job.

Oh, and all those translators in the European Parliament who have to translate everything into German, Portuguese, Catalan, Slovenian, Welsh, Gaelic, Breton, Basque, Finnish, Hungarian, Latvian, Danish, Greek, Polish, Swedish, Dutch, Ruthenian and Ruritanian etc.

Alfie

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Re: Should There Have been An Upper Age Limit For Voters?
« Reply #58 on: July 12, 2016, 09:03:48 AM »
27 countries and their people will all benefit by...
* being free again to run their own countries,
* set their own bank interest
* and tax rates etc.,
* be able to make their own trade deals without 27 countries having to be consulted and taking years to complete,
* be free of the stifling bureaucracy that snags up industry and enterprise and has led to economic stagnation in the E.U. and mass unemployment in some eurozone countries, and
* be free of having to send their M.E.P.s all over Europe to sit in TWO Parliaments where their votes are merely advisory and have no legal effect whatsoever.

All good.

The only downside is that manufacturers of EU flags and a few thousand MEPs and Eurocrats will be out of a job.

Oh, and all those translators in the European Parliament who have to translate everything into German, Portuguese, Catalan, Slovenian, Welsh, Gaelic, Breton, Basque, Finnish, Hungarian, Latvian, Danish, Greek, Polish, Swedish, Dutch, Ruthenian and Ruritanian etc.
Makes you wonder why countries are so anxious to join the EU in the first place, doesn't it.... &%+((

Offline G-Unit

Re: Should There Have been An Upper Age Limit For Voters?
« Reply #59 on: July 12, 2016, 10:14:48 AM »
Makes you wonder why countries are so anxious to join the EU in the first place, doesn't it.... &%+((

Because most of the recent joiners were net gainers?
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