Author Topic: Kate McCann insisted that Gerry and Dave go out searching for Madeleine.  (Read 28925 times)

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Offline Robittybob1

But if any of them was guilty of any part of anything they would be the least likely to abide by a request to "call the police", or even they may just pretend to call the police but don't actually do it.
Would a perpetrator ever call the police?
""I remember saying to Matt at that point 'You go down to main reception and phone the Police'." Fiona Payne"  If that is true then I'd say Fiona is OK.
But did Matt obey Fiona?
Has anyone tried to answer this question as yet.
It seems PF has covered it in part http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7407.msg346013#msg346013 where Matt says he asked the staff to call the police at around 10 past 10.  Is this where the site manager comes in?

""Dave and Russell were just running off sort of shouting, so Fiona, I think, asked me to go and phone the Police, so I actually went down the route to where she would have gone for Nursery drop off, which his back to the, to the main reception essentially, so I went down that route looking for her at that time and I asked the reception to phone the Police, and that must have been about five past, it's difficult to know what time it was at that time, but maybe about ten past ten, five past ten, ten past ten'" Matt Oldfield

"I remember saying to Matt at that point 'You go down to main reception and phone the Police'." Fiona Payne"  So that is obviously the first request to phone the police which is different to the quote I first noted "I had lost concentration in the posts of who exactly "went back to check the police had been called".  I could imagine many asked the same question to the staff and to each other."
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7407.msg346021#msg346021

"Going back to check the police had been called" is a different event than the one Matt is talking about.  At 10 past 10 this would have been the initial request of the staff to call the police not the "going back to check the police had been called" event.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2016, 10:31:56 PM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline pathfinder73

The longer the police are called the better for the perp(s) to cover their tracks. If they were all running up and down back lanes/streets then who saw who, where and time to account for their whereabouts. The timeline is crucial to put witnesses in the correct place and to see if anybody went missing from the group. That's why a reconstruction would clear all of this up but they didn't want to do it.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Robittybob1

The longer the police are called the better for the perp(s) to cover their tracks. If they were all running up and down back lanes/streets then who saw who, where and time to account for their whereabouts. The timeline is crucial to put witnesses in the correct place and to see if anybody went missing from the group. That's why a reconstruction would clear all of this up but they didn't want to do it.
That's silly really for would anyone be able to remember, and wouldn't anyone involved with anything still lie.
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Offline sadie

The longer the police are called the better for the perp(s) to cover their tracks. If they were all running up and down back lanes/streets then who saw who, where and time to account for their whereabouts. The timeline is crucial to put witnesses in the correct place and to see if anybody went missing from the group. That's why a reconstruction would clear all of this up but they didn't want to do it.
Didn't you know?
In the early days after the abduction, Kate and Gerry pressed for wanted a reconstruction, but it wasn't to be.  ETA.  This has been challenged and i cannot find a cite for this assertion.  However I am certain that it was discussed and so leave it standing.  ETA 2.  I understand what you are saying mercury and if I cannot find a cite then I must alter it, so altered from 'pressed for' to 'wanted'


mercury, why don't you chase the many inaccuracies and dreadful myths deliberately propagated by your side at very frequent intervals ?
But seems that the ones from your side and very deliberate ones, are OK by you ?


Amaral gave some lame excuse about crowds.  If the PJ and GNR were incapable of controlling crowds then what were they useful for?

IMO, Amaral had already made up his mind that he was going to go after Kate and Gerry and he didn't want any evidence to come forth which made his views a nonsense.

Offline mercury

Didn't you know?
In the early days after the abduction, Kate and Gerry pressed for a reconstruction, but it wasn't to be.


A cite would be helpful for that assertion, I dont believe Ive seen the request, thanks in advance

Offline sadie

A cite would be helpful for that assertion, I dont believe Ive seen the request, thanks in advance
I have no idea where I would find it, but there definitely was mention that Kate and Gerry asked for a reconstruction at the time .... and the excuse given by Amaral was that the crowds would disrupt it /  make it impossible to do.

Offline Robittybob1

Who "went back to check the police had been called"?
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Offline pegasus

"and he broke down with me on the front, you know. You know just very obviously a broken man, and you know we spent some time you know, not long, I was trying my best to console him, we went back then to the err the apartment, you know it's, by around about four, four thirty in the morning" (Source: Cartas Rogatorias)

Offline Robittybob1

"and he broke down with me on the front, you know. You know just very obviously a broken man, and you know we spent some time you know, not long, I was trying my best to console him, we went back then to the err the apartment, you know it's, by around about four, four thirty in the morning" (Source: Cartas Rogatorias)
That was on the way back, were they together on the way out as well?
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Offline pathfinder73

That was on the way back, were they together on the way out as well?

Yes see title of thread.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Brietta

A cite would be helpful for that assertion, I dont believe Ive seen the request, thanks in advance

44 - It was thought to do the reconstruction in May but that wasn't possible. The number of tourists, the number of journalists and the fact that the air space had to be closed (because of helicopters from the media) and the fact that it would make the public suspect the McCanns were being treated as suspects prevented it.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id137.html

Quote taken from Mr Amaral's book ...

Em meados de Maio já se tinha procedido a uma segunda leva de inquirições deste grupo de nove turistas que passava férias na Vila da Luz. As contradições entre os diversos depoimentos aumentaram.

Apesar de ser importante uma segunda inquirição de Kate Healy, decidiu-se esperar mais algum tempo porque a mãe de Maddie estaria demasiado abalada.

É nesta altura que se coloca a necessidade de se proceder a uma reconstituição dos factos daquela noite numa tentativa de os esclarecer. Esta constitui um acto processual e investigatório muito comum, sobretudo quando se avolumam os pormenores e contradições de um determinado caso.

Progride-se consideravel- mente quando uma reconstituição se concretiza. Estaríamos na presença de dezenas de intervenientes – o grupo de turistas, os empregados do restaurante, as educadoras e as demais teste- munhas. Percebe assim o leitor o incomensurável valor que a reconstituição daquela noite teria.

A sua realização pode funcio- nar como catalisador no esclarecimento da sequência de factos e sobre a sua simultaneidade. Se houver contradições durante a reconstituição, instantaneamente estas são explicadas pelos seus protagonistas

Mas a reconstituição não se realizou. Porquê? Atendendo ao número de turistas que estava no aldeamento, o qual teria de ser fechado durante algumas horas, afectando as suas férias, pela necessidade de fechar o espaço aéreo, pelo elevado número de jor- nalistas num espaço que se tornara exíguo e ainda porque se temia que se achasse que os pais de Maddie e os seus amigos estariam a ser considerados suspeitos e, naturalmente, não queríamos um julgamento na praça pública.

Foi discutida esta possibilidade no seio da equipa de investigação, mas a decisão acabou por ser a sua não realização, apesar de algumas vozes discordantes.

Ainda assim, a reconstituição daquela noite poderia ter sido feita de uma forma mais discreta, apenas com os pais da criança desaparecida. No essencial, obter-se-ia o mesmo efeito esclare- cedor sobre o que então ocorreu. Pela responsabilidade directa (pais-filhos) e pelo teor e valor dos seus depoimentos, os pais são o fio condutor daquela noite. Isto sem que, antes pelo contrário, se faça qualquer juízo a priori. Apenas decorre do dever de coo- peração, normalíssimo nestas situações.

É meu entendimento que esta reconstituição, seja com todos os intervenientes ou apenas com os pais, ainda é extremamente útil. A «encenação» da noite, no sentido técnico e investigatório do termo, acto de reconstituição a partir do rol de elementos que constam do processo permite, em articulação com estes manter ainda hoje a memória viva da noite de 3 de Maio de 2007. Não se percebe, assim, porque não se realiza.


By the middle of May we had already proceeded with a second series of questioning of the nine tourists who spent their holidays in Vila da Luz. There was an increase in the number of contradictions between the various statements.

Despite the importance of a second questioning of Kate Healy it was decided to wait a little longer because the mother of Maddie would be too upset/shaken.

This is when the need arises to proceed with a reconstruction of the events of that night in an attempt to make things clearer. This is a very common investigative procedure especially when details and contradictions are piling up in a given case.

Considrable progress is made when a reconstruction is done. We would be in the presence of many of those involved – the group of tourists, the restaurant workers, the nursery teachers, and other witnesses. So the reader can see how very important a reconstruction of that night would have been.

The reconstruction can work as a catalyst for clarifying the sequence of events and their respective timings. If there are contradictions during the reconstruction they are immediately explained by those involved.

The reconstruction never happened. Why? Given the large number of tourists in the village whose holidays would be affected if it were closed for several hours, the necessity to close the airspace, the large number of journalists in such a small area and the fear that the parents of Maddie and their friends were coming under suspicion and naturally we did not wish to see a trial in a public arena.

The team of investigators discussed the possibility but a decision was taken that there would be no reconstruction in spite of some dissenting voices..

Even so, the reconstruction of that evening could have been done in a more discreet way with only the parents of the child who had disappeared. Essentially it would have the same effect of clearing up what happened at the time. Due to their direct responsibility (Parent-child) and the meaning and value of their statements the parents are the driving force of that night. No a priori judgement is intended, quite the contrary. It simply follows from the duty of cooperation, normal in such situations.

It is my opinion that this reconstruction, whether with all those involved or only with the parents, remains extremely useful. The “staging” of the night in the technical and investigative sense of the term, the act of reconstruction starting from the list of elements contained in the process allows, in conjunction with these the night of 3 May 2007 to be kept alive as a living memory today. It isn’t clear, therefore, why it is not happening.
https://madeleinemccannthetruth.wordpress.com/2011/08/05/the-purpose-of-a-reconstruction/
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline pathfinder73

Who "went back to check the police had been called"?

Gerry said he checked but he went to the reception with manager John Hill much later at around 10:40. Matt was also present but said nothing about Gerry being there before that time. Fiona sent Matt to go to main reception at around 10:10. Kate claims in Madeleine that it was in fact Gerry who told Matt to go. 
« Last Edit: July 18, 2016, 01:40:46 AM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline mercury

44 - It was thought to do the reconstruction in May but that wasn't possible. The number of tourists, the number of journalists and the fact that the air space had to be closed (because of helicopters from the media) and the fact that it would make the public suspect the McCanns were being treated as suspects prevented it.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id137.html

Quote taken from Mr Amaral's book ...

Em meados de Maio já se tinha procedido a uma segunda leva de inquirições deste grupo de nove turistas que passava férias na Vila da Luz. As contradições entre os diversos depoimentos aumentaram.

Apesar de ser importante uma segunda inquirição de Kate Healy, decidiu-se esperar mais algum tempo porque a mãe de Maddie estaria demasiado abalada.

É nesta altura que se coloca a necessidade de se proceder a uma reconstituição dos factos daquela noite numa tentativa de os esclarecer. Esta constitui um acto processual e investigatório muito comum, sobretudo quando se avolumam os pormenores e contradições de um determinado caso.

Progride-se consideravel- mente quando uma reconstituição se concretiza. Estaríamos na presença de dezenas de intervenientes – o grupo de turistas, os empregados do restaurante, as educadoras e as demais teste- munhas. Percebe assim o leitor o incomensurável valor que a reconstituição daquela noite teria.

A sua realização pode funcio- nar como catalisador no esclarecimento da sequência de factos e sobre a sua simultaneidade. Se houver contradições durante a reconstituição, instantaneamente estas são explicadas pelos seus protagonistas

Mas a reconstituição não se realizou. Porquê? Atendendo ao número de turistas que estava no aldeamento, o qual teria de ser fechado durante algumas horas, afectando as suas férias, pela necessidade de fechar o espaço aéreo, pelo elevado número de jor- nalistas num espaço que se tornara exíguo e ainda porque se temia que se achasse que os pais de Maddie e os seus amigos estariam a ser considerados suspeitos e, naturalmente, não queríamos um julgamento na praça pública.

Foi discutida esta possibilidade no seio da equipa de investigação, mas a decisão acabou por ser a sua não realização, apesar de algumas vozes discordantes.

Ainda assim, a reconstituição daquela noite poderia ter sido feita de uma forma mais discreta, apenas com os pais da criança desaparecida. No essencial, obter-se-ia o mesmo efeito esclare- cedor sobre o que então ocorreu. Pela responsabilidade directa (pais-filhos) e pelo teor e valor dos seus depoimentos, os pais são o fio condutor daquela noite. Isto sem que, antes pelo contrário, se faça qualquer juízo a priori. Apenas decorre do dever de coo- peração, normalíssimo nestas situações.

É meu entendimento que esta reconstituição, seja com todos os intervenientes ou apenas com os pais, ainda é extremamente útil. A «encenação» da noite, no sentido técnico e investigatório do termo, acto de reconstituição a partir do rol de elementos que constam do processo permite, em articulação com estes manter ainda hoje a memória viva da noite de 3 de Maio de 2007. Não se percebe, assim, porque não se realiza.


By the middle of May we had already proceeded with a second series of questioning of the nine tourists who spent their holidays in Vila da Luz. There was an increase in the number of contradictions between the various statements.

Despite the importance of a second questioning of Kate Healy it was decided to wait a little longer because the mother of Maddie would be too upset/shaken.

This is when the need arises to proceed with a reconstruction of the events of that night in an attempt to make things clearer. This is a very common investigative procedure especially when details and contradictions are piling up in a given case.

Considrable progress is made when a reconstruction is done. We would be in the presence of many of those involved – the group of tourists, the restaurant workers, the nursery teachers, and other witnesses. So the reader can see how very important a reconstruction of that night would have been.

The reconstruction can work as a catalyst for clarifying the sequence of events and their respective timings. If there are contradictions during the reconstruction they are immediately explained by those involved.

The reconstruction never happened. Why? Given the large number of tourists in the village whose holidays would be affected if it were closed for several hours, the necessity to close the airspace, the large number of journalists in such a small area and the fear that the parents of Maddie and their friends were coming under suspicion and naturally we did not wish to see a trial in a public arena.

The team of investigators discussed the possibility but a decision was taken that there would be no reconstruction in spite of some dissenting voices..

Even so, the reconstruction of that evening could have been done in a more discreet way with only the parents of the child who had disappeared. Essentially it would have the same effect of clearing up what happened at the time. Due to their direct responsibility (Parent-child) and the meaning and value of their statements the parents are the driving force of that night. No a priori judgement is intended, quite the contrary. It simply follows from the duty of cooperation, normal in such situations.

It is my opinion that this reconstruction, whether with all those involved or only with the parents, remains extremely useful. The “staging” of the night in the technical and investigative sense of the term, the act of reconstruction starting from the list of elements contained in the process allows, in conjunction with these the night of 3 May 2007 to be kept alive as a living memory today. It isn’t clear, therefore, why it is not happening.
https://madeleinemccannthetruth.wordpress.com/2011/08/05/the-purpose-of-a-reconstruction/

Thats not a cite for sadies assertion that the mccanns pressed for a reconstruction, which is what i asked for but thanks anyway for taking the trouble

Offline Robittybob1

Gerry said he checked but he went to the reception with manager John Hill much later at 10:40. Matt was also present but said nothing about Gerry being there before that time. Fiona sent Matt to go to main reception at around 10:10. Kate claims in Madeleine that it was in fact Gerry who told Matt to go.
Interesting that.  For it is recorded in Jes Wilkins statement that John and Matt come up to his apartment at 1:00 AM.
But also there is a period when Matt is not in the apartment around the 10:40 period.  I got that. 
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Offline pathfinder73

Interesting that.  For it is recorded in Jes Wilkins statement that John and Matt come up to his apartment at 1:00 AM.
But also there is a period when Matt is not in the apartment around the 10:40 period.  I got that.

Matt went into 5A only once according to his rog interview. The police arrived later.

"I did go into the apartment, just as far perhaps as the, erm, as the kitchen, and I could see them sat on the sofa, but they were in with the Police and there was nothing we could do or say, so we came back out, and that's the only time I went back into the apartment'." Matt Oldfield
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.