A fresh look at Eddie the cadaver dog and those alerts.

[ShiningInLuz]

" ...

“Can you confirm if the signal given regarding the stuffed toy corresponds to a concrete alert of detection of a cadaver, or a mere trick played by the dog”

From Grime’s predictably indignant response, we learn something else startling:

The dogs were not taught any ‘tricks’. The cadaver dog, Eddie, reacted to the toy, which at my request was retained by the Judicial Police for future forensic analysis. I have no knowledge of the results of any forensic analysis on the toy.

... "

Was Cuddle Cat retained by the JP?


264

[Mr Gray]

" ...

“Can you confirm if the signal given regarding the stuffed toy corresponds to a concrete alert of detection of a cadaver, or a mere trick played by the dog”

From Grime’s predictably indignant response, we learn something else startling:

The dogs were not taught any ‘tricks’. The cadaver dog, Eddie, reacted to the toy, which at my request was retained by the Judicial Police for future forensic analysis. I have no knowledge of the results of any forensic analysis on the toy.

... "

Was Cuddle Cat retained by the JP?

Grime failed to give a direct answer to the question
Very telling

[Robittybob1]

Legend has it ...

From the PJ files http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

'False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has not so indicated
operationally or in training. In six years of operational deployment in over 200
criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and
specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption. Similarly the
dog has never alerted to 'road kill', that is any other dead animal.
My experience as a trainer is that false alerts are normally caused by handler
cueing. All indications by the dog are preceded by a change in bahaviour.
This increased handler confidence in the response. This procedure also stops
handlers 'cueing' and indication. The dogs are allowed to 'free search' and
investigate areas of interest. The handler does not influence their behaviour
other than to direct the search.

[Mr Gray]

Legend has it ...

From the PJ files http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

'False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has not so indicated
operationally or in training. In six years of operational deployment in over 200
criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and
specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption. Similarly the
dog has never alerted to 'road kill', that is any other dead animal.
My experience as a trainer is that false alerts are normally caused by handler
cueing. All indications by the dog are preceded by a change in bahaviour.
This increased handler confidence in the response. This procedure also stops
handlers 'cueing' and indication. The dogs are allowed to 'free search' and
investigate areas of interest. The handler does not influence their behaviour
other than to direct the search.



you are still wrong


first it is 200 case searches not cases...eddie has not been involved in 200 cases


what grime is saying is eddie has never alerted to meat for human consumption. amaral thought this meant eddie had not been found wrong in 200 cases......another myth

[ferryman]

That is a very good question.
1. She was seen in her bed but no odour found on her bed clothes.
2. Cadaver odour in the car but DNA from the car was not a perfect match to Madeleine.
3. Dani Krugel found two sites of interest with his mystery machine.  These two hairs were given to him from different items and therefore they may have been from two different people to get the two "high priority" places.

Eddie's reaction (to the car) was spots of Gerry's blood on the ignition key.

Eddie studiously ignored the boot ....

[ShiningInLuz]

Eddie's reaction (to the car) was spots of Gerry's blood on the ignition key.

Eddie studiously ignored the boot ....

Eddie was not put inside the Scenic, therefore the boot was not studiously ignored.

The dog alerted to the driver's door of the Scenic, then to the key fob buried in a bucket of sand.

[pathfinder73]

Eddie was not put inside the Scenic, therefore the boot was not studiously ignored.

The dog alerted to the driver's door of the Scenic, then to the key fob buried in a bucket of sand.

They didn't leave the car boot open day and night for the smell of Gerry's blood but there was a reason for leaving the boot open.

[ferryman]

'False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has not so indicated
operationally or in training. In six years of operational deployment in over 200
criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and
specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption. Similarly the
dog has never alerted to 'road kill', that is any other dead animal.
My experience as a trainer is that false alerts are normally caused by handler
cueing. All indications by the dog are preceded by a change in bahaviour.
This increased handler confidence in the response. This procedure also stops
handlers 'cueing' and indication. The dogs are allowed to 'free search' and
investigate areas of interest. The handler does not influence their behaviour
other than to direct the search.



you are still wrong


first it is 200 case searches not cases...eddie has not been involved in 200 cases


what grime is saying is eddie has never alerted to meat for human consumption. amaral thought this meant eddie had not been found wrong in 200 cases......another myth

Correct.

The true number is 37.

I said 'correct;, but I hadn't read what Dave wrote properly.

Amaral claimed operational deployment and 200 cases.

The true number is operational deployment and 37 cases.

[Mr Gray]

Eddie was not put inside the Scenic, therefore the boot was not studiously ignored.

The dog alerted to the driver's door of the Scenic, then to the key fob buried in a bucket of sand.

So what does Eddies alert tell us

[ferryman]

So what does Eddies alert tell us

Zilch.

[John]

I'm sure most people would tend to disagree with you.  At that stage didn't Eddie have score card of 199 out of 200 cases being correctly indicated.
I think the three key issues to me were:
1. Why was there no cadaver odour on Madeleine's bed clothes yet it was on cuddle cat.
2.  How could there be cadaver odour in the rental car hired 3 weeks after the event.
3. Why would there be cadaver odour in 3 places around apartment 5A.

We like to deal in facts here bob.  First off, there is no evidence that the dog alerted to cadaverine, none whatsoever.  The dog handler expert who carried out the tests stated in his final report that the alerts had "No Evidential Reliability".   In the absence of cadaverine I cannot see how you take this forward.

[pathfinder73]

So what does Eddies alert tell us

Eddie's alerts - we know what his alert told the police in the Prout case.......find the body. Actually if you give me one case where Eddie has alerted and the police haven't looked for a body I would be amazed. This case is no different. They are looking for a body and they will be nearly 100% sure who was seen carrying it heading towards the beach.  Tannerman is found but not Smithman. The only credible and last line of inquiry has to be this in this case. I had it from the start and nothing has changed except proving it.

[Mr Gray]

Eddie's alerts - we know what his alert told the police in the Prout case.......find the body. Actually if you give me one case where Eddie has alerted and the police haven't looked for a body I would be amazed. This case is no different. They are looking for a body and they will be nearly 100% sure who was seen carrying it heading towards the beach.  Tannerman is found but not Smithman. The only credible and last line of inquiry has to be this in this case. I had it from the start and nothing has changed except proving it.

So again
What does eddies alert at the car tell us
No waffle this time

[pathfinder73]

So again
What does eddies alert at the car tell us
No waffle this time

"The dog has also been trained to identify 'dead body' scent contamination where there is no physically retrievable evidence, due to scent adhering to pervious material such as carpet or the upholstery in motor vehicles. Whereas there may be no retrievable evidence for court purposes this may well assist intelligence gathering in Major Crime investigations."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

[Mr Gray]

"The dog has also been trained to identify 'dead body' scent contamination where there is no physically retrievable evidence, due to scent adhering to pervious material such as carpet or the upholstery in motor vehicles. Whereas there may be no retrievable evidence for court purposes this may well assist intelligence gathering in Major Crime investigations."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

Dog was also trained to detect blood
So what was the alert to