A fresh look at Eddie the cadaver dog and those alerts.

[Mr Gray]

My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is  suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a  number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence  reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

Not blood Davel but cadaver scent and corroborating evidence is required.

Yes the word is suggestive
What he doesn't tell us is HOW suggestive
And as he doesn't we don't know and to claim anything else is a personal opinion with no evidence to back it up
What we do know is that Grime was asked if the alert to cuddle cat was an alert to cadaver
Grime ducked the question
The dogs tell us nothing more than there may have been a cadaver in the apartment but we know that anyway

[Mr Gray]

Suggestive is a term you use to save one's ass incase a miracle happens and she turns up alive.

Absolute rubbish
If he had confidence in the alert he could have said so
He didn't
He hasnt

[pathfinder73]

His professional opinion is that Eddie alerted to cadaver scent not blood. All cadaver dogs can alert to blood but they go into crime scene's first to detect cadaver scent. Microscopic blood is much weaker and harder for a dog to detect so Keela was used to only detect blood. None on the clothes, none detected at the first alert at the wardrobe. So they would conclude Eddie alerted to cadaver scent. No evidence of the missing person 9 years later so they would still conclude it was cadaver scent that Eddie alerted to.

[Mr Gray]

His professional opinion is that Eddie alerted to cadaver scent not blood. All cadaver dogs can alert to blood but they go into crime scene's first to detect cadaver scent. Microscopic blood is much weaker and harder for a dog to detect so Keela was used to only detect blood. None on the clothes, none detected at the first alert at the wardrobe. So they would conclude Eddie alerted to cadaver scent. No evidence of the missing person 9 years later so they would still conclude it was cadaver scent that Eddie alerted to.

His professional opinion is no such thing unless you can provide a cite

More dog rubbish

[Brietta]

The several alerts by a cadaver dog of proven worth tell us that a deceased person or objects/materials which came into contact with a deceased person could have been detected.  A child disappears, a cadaver dog alerts, a coincidence too far?

Having watched the video footage from Praia da Luz and what has come to be accepted as the cadaver dog alerting, I think it safe to say that the same dog showed the same behaviour from one end of Haute de la Garenne to the other.

The mistaken intelligence thus provided set the investigation into the actuality of what may have happened to children in care at the home off track and ran the risk for future prosecutions of offenders.

In parallel with the misinterpreted intelligence vis-a-vis the McCann case which was allowed to run to the extent of implicating the wrong people as suspects.
The ramifications of which are felt to the present day as evidenced by threads such as this on various fora on the internet.
 
THE INDEPENDENT JERSEY CARE INQUIRY

Page 30
28
By this time, the Metropolitan Police review team had expressed the view that no bodies had been buried at Haut de la Garenne.

Page 31
94
In his review, Matt Tapp concluded that statements had been made in relation to the 'skull fragment', 'cellars' and 'shackles' which were not accurate; that 'the nature and quantity of much of the media coverage was generated and sustained by the police's deliberate decision to provide a regular diet of information to the media'; and that 'on a number of occasions, [Lenny Harper] 31 32 placed information and allegations into the public domain, or responded to issues and allegations in the media, which distracted attention from the child abuse investigation, and this may have tarnished the reputation of the force and weakened public confidence in the investigation and its professionalism'.
http://www.jerseycareinquiry.org/Transcripts/Day%20126%20Documents%20Optimised.pdf


I think it is obvious the cadaver dog did its job in both cases.  In both cases, nobody, not even his handler knows why he was barking.
There are apparently some who refute the substantial body of evidence from Jersey to that effect and publish conspiracy theories of the murder of children;  which were we to take the cadaver dog at his bark would have been a massacre.

Unfortunately, the case in Luz was not subject to the same internal inquiries ... leaving even more room for speculation and wild, preposterous theories.

[Mr Gray]

Having watched the video footage from Praia da Luz and what has come to be accepted as the cadaver dog alerting, I think it safe to say that the same dog showed the same behaviour from one end of Haute de la Garenne to the other.

The mistaken intelligence thus provided set the investigation into the actuality of what may have happened to children in care at the home off track and ran the risk for future prosecutions of offenders.

In parallel with the misinterpreted intelligence vis-a-vis the McCann case which was allowed to run to the extent of implicating the wrong people as suspects.
The ramifications of which are felt to the present day as evidenced by threads such as this on various fora on the internet.
 
THE INDEPENDENT JERSEY CARE INQUIRY

Page 30
28
By this time, the Metropolitan Police review team had expressed the view that no bodies had been buried at Haut de la Garenne.

Page 31
94
In his review, Matt Tapp concluded that statements had been made in relation to the 'skull fragment', 'cellars' and 'shackles' which were not accurate; that 'the nature and quantity of much of the media coverage was generated and sustained by the police's deliberate decision to provide a regular diet of information to the media'; and that 'on a number of occasions, [Lenny Harper] 31 32 placed information and allegations into the public domain, or responded to issues and allegations in the media, which distracted attention from the child abuse investigation, and this may have tarnished the reputation of the force and weakened public confidence in the investigation and its professionalism'.
http://www.jerseycareinquiry.org/Transcripts/Day%20126%20Documents%20Optimised.pdf


I think it is obvious the cadaver dog did its job in both cases.  In both cases, nobody, not even his handler knows why he was barking.
There are apparently some who refute the substantial body of evidence from Jersey to that effect and publish conspiracy theories of the murder of children;  which were we to take the cadaver dog at his bark would have been a massacre.

Unfortunately, the case in Luz was not subject to the same internal inquiries ... leaving even more room for speculation and wild, preposterous theories.

Grime says at about 55....definitely a change in behavior...now where have we heard that before....sounds more like  a double glazing salesman

[Angelo222]

Having watched the video footage from Praia da Luz and what has come to be accepted as the cadaver dog alerting, I think it safe to say that the same dog showed the same behaviour from one end of Haute de la Garenne to the other.

The mistaken intelligence thus provided set the investigation into the actuality of what may have happened to children in care at the home off track and ran the risk for future prosecutions of offenders.

In parallel with the misinterpreted intelligence vis-a-vis the McCann case which was allowed to run to the extent of implicating the wrong people as suspects.
The ramifications of which are felt to the present day as evidenced by threads such as this on various fora on the internet.

"One end to the other" ?  A bit of an exaggeration Brietta.

Dogs don't lie so Eddie found scent in the children's home consistent with his training.  He also found scent in the Prout bungalow and the McCann apartment.  Can you explain why we should accept one but not another??

[Mr Gray]

"One end to the other" ?  A bit of an exaggeration Brietta.

Dogs don't lie so Eddie found scent consistent with his training.

that isnt what grime told the portuguese police

[Mr Gray]

"One end to the other" ?  A bit of an exaggeration Brietta.

Dogs don't lie so Eddie found scent in the children's home consistent with his training.  He also found scent in the Print bungalow and the McCann apartment.

unfortunately dogs don't speak either so without any sort of confirmation..even the opinion of the handler would be something...we do not know what the dog was alerting to

[Angelo222]

unfortunately dogs don't speak either so without any sort of confirmation..even the opinion of the handler would be something...we do not know what the dog was alerting to

We don't but history tells us no to ignore them all the same.

[Mr Gray]

We don't but history tells us no to ignore them all the same.

history doesnt tell us that..history tells us there were multiple alerts in PDL and Jersey and no concrete findings can be made from any of them...that is a fact

[ferryman]

" ...

“Can you confirm if the signal given regarding the stuffed toy corresponds to a concrete alert of detection of a cadaver, or a mere trick played by the dog”

From Grime’s predictably indignant response, we learn something else startling:

The dogs were not taught any ‘tricks’. The cadaver dog, Eddie, reacted to the toy, which at my request was retained by the Judicial Police for future forensic analysis. I have no knowledge of the results of any forensic analysis on the toy.

... "

Was Cuddle Cat retained by the JP?


63

Not sure where, in the files, it is, but somewhere it is recorded that cuddle-cat was returned to the McCanns (next day, I think).

Certainly never sent to the FSS. 

No reference to it in John Lowe's report.

[John]

Grime's opinion was the antithesis of professional, as was his manner of deployment (of the dogs).

It is unfair to blame Grime for the way in which the inspections were undertaken.  He was not responsible for the way in which the items to be inspected were transported or laid out, nor did he have the authority to veto decisions made by the police in charge in respect of locations etc.  He was put in the position where he either went along with the PJ or renege and return home.  I'm sure he would be the first to admit that the deployment was not ideal by any stretch of the imagination.

Point to note:  From Mr Grime's profile:

POINTS TO ASSIST

Whilst it is stated that the E.V.R D. is originally trained using pig the following notes

of guidance should be considered when assessing indications:

P In six years operational deployment in over 200 cases the dog has never

alerted to meat based foodstuffs.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

[Mr Gray]

It is unfair to blame Grime for the way in which the inspections were undertaken.  He was not responsible for the way in which the items to be inspected were transported or laid out, nor did he have the authority to veto decisions made by the police in charge in respect of locations etc.  He was put in the position where he either went along with the PJ or renege and return home.  I'm sure he would be the first to admit that the deployment was not ideal by any stretch of the imagination.

Point to note:  From Mr Grime's profile:

POINTS TO ASSIST

Whilst it is stated that the E.V.R D. is originally trained using pig the following notes

of guidance should be considered when assessing indications:

P In six years operational deployment in over 200 cases the dog has never

alerted to meat based foodstuffs.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

as regards your points to assist all it is saying is that the dogs did not alert to food. many have taken the above statement....including amaral...to read that the dogs have a 100% record over 200 cases...an absolute lie.

the fact is there is no real evidence to support the validity of any unconfirmed alert....none...that is an absolute fact...

[Brietta]

Dog of the Dead: The Science of Canine Cadaver Detection

Warren explains that researchers are slowly learning about the volatile organic compounds released from human remains. Additionally, while “…we humans smell much more like chicken than pig when we decompose,” cadaver detection dogs should only be trained on human remains. (To that I am obliged to add, ‘One day you will smell (somewhat) like a dead chicken’).

Warren does not sidestep real issues in canine scent detection work. The Clever Hans effect, a dog alerting based on a human’s behavior instead of what the dog's nose says, is to be avoided at all cost. Double-blind training and searches can help avoid this. Dogs can also false alert (indicate that something is present when it’s actually not). In rare instances, there have been issues with law enforcement, sometimes resulting in incorrect arrests.
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/dog-spies/dog-of-the-dead-the-science-of-canine-cadaver-detection/




Without definite scientific proof that a canine has alerted to the scent of human remains it is my opinion that any alerts can only be taken as an indication which must be substantiated.

Author Ian Rankin states "Rotting flesh smells like rotting flesh," in the newspaper article which gives the lie to the theory that a child's body could have lain undiscovered anywhere in a populated area with the graphic description of the effect of rotting chicken.

It would be interesting to know if a dog trained using decomposing pig flesh would similarly alert to rotting chicken which scientists know to share more VOCs with humans and if so, what else would excite their interest?

As noted in the above snip ... "issues with law enforcement, sometimes resulting in incorrect arrests." have occurred.

In the investigation into Madeleine McCann's case "issues with law enforcement" regarding interpretation of unsubstantiated dog alerts in combination with misinterpretation of forensic results resulted Madeleine's parents wrongly being constituted as arguidos.