A fresh look at Eddie the cadaver dog and those alerts.

[ferryman]

this is the part I like from your link...


Homicide investigation. I develop methods of detecting forensically recoverable

evidence by the use of dogs and facilitate training.


the dogs are trained to recover evidence...that is there purpose

The dogs are trained to react to scents.

It is the job of humans to find evidence.

[Mr Gray]

The dogs are trained to react to scents.

It is the job of humans to find evidence.

the purpose of the dogs is to help locate evidence...so what evidence found in PDL

[Alice Purjorick]

Without wishing to divert the thread, what is the requirement for someone to qualify as an expert witness in a UK court of criminal law?

I ask this for a simple reason.  If I was sitting on a jury and the judge permitted Martin Grime to be classed as an expert witness, then the judge would find himself/herself short of a juror, unless considerable questions about Mr Grime's expertise, the dogs' capability, the dogs' training and testing, and the dogs' deployment in this and other cases were resolved satisfactorily.

Despite reading multiple dogs threads in multiple places, I have yet to see one that leads me to elevate Mr Grime to the status of 'expert', or to convince me to put faith in the dogs.  That information may exist, but if it does so, it is not in the public domain, IMO.

I would expect to see Mr Grime undergoing an extensive grilling by any half-competent barrister.  As to whether Mr Grime would pass muster or die a flame-roasted death, who knows.

Fundamentally one has to be accepted as an expert in the field by both sides.

[Mr Gray]

Fundamentally one has to be accepted as an expert in the field by both sides.

seems rather academic seeing as the alerts are not admissible for very obvious reasons

[pegasus]

Recently a VR dog alerted to an area of ground in a USA case. Digging revealed a buried animal. So why did the dog alert?  There is a reason - and it shows how good these dogs are - Pathfinder and Misty will probably get it.

Here is the answer, it was one of the places alerted by a dog called Chance in Idaho in June 2016. 
"Chance is trained on human decomposition and human blood pathogen decomposition"
The 3rd alert was "10 Feet Due East of camp site. This area was excavated by hand – and found that a previous animal had been buried at this location. During the burial the subject who did the burial cut his hand and bled into a towel wrapped around the animal."
(Source: http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7045.msg346067#msg346067 )

[mercury]

The dogs are trained to react to scents.

It is the job of humans to find evidence.

they both did
The question is if eddie alerted to cadaver odour, whichhis handler said he did, canbe  proved, it cant,so its circumstantial "evidence" but evidence/intelligence all the same

Evenif 100 per cent certainty of MMs dna was there for keela to find, it would stillbe circumstantial without a body, if a body is ever found that circumstantial evidence would be strengthened

[Robittybob1]

they both did
The question is if eddie alerted to cadaver odour, whichhis handler said he did, canbe  proved, it cant,so its circumstantial "evidence" but evidence/intelligence all the same

Evenif 100 per cent certainty of MMs dna was there for keela to find, it would stillbe circumstantial without a body, if a body is ever found that circumstantial evidence would be strengthened

You can get convictions just from circumstantial evidence alone. So ultimately you don't need the body, just enough circumstantial evidence.

[Mr Gray]

they both did
The question is if eddie alerted to cadaver odour, whichhis handler said he did, canbe  proved, it cant,so its circumstantial "evidence" but evidence/intelligence all the same

Evenif 100 per cent certainty of MMs dna was there for keela to find, it would stillbe circumstantial without a body, if a body is ever found that circumstantial evidence would be strengthened

grime did not say Eddie reacted to cadaver odour....have you still not grasped that.....so no evidence circumstantial or otherwise...no wonder all your conclusions are wrong

[Robittybob1]

grime did not say Eddie reacted to cadaver odour....have you still not grasped that.....so no evidence circumstantial or otherwise...no wonder all your conclusions are wrong

That surprises me.

[Mr Gray]

That surprises me.

Why
Have you been reading the rubbish on other forums

[Robittybob1]

Why
Have you been reading the rubbish on other forums

I made a comment on another thread.  It was the car booth not the car boot.  So Eddie alerted to the car booth not the boot. In other words the inside of the Renault Scenic hire car. 
What date was it actually hired.  That could make a significant difference.

[Mr Gray]

I made a comment on another thread.  It was the car booth not the car boot.  So Eddie alerted to the car booth not the boot. In other words the inside of the Renault Scenic hire car. 
What date was it actually hired.  That could make a significant difference.

I realise you won't have a cite for that

[Mr Gray]

Of all the alerts made by Eddie during his career
How many have actually been confirmed as cadaver odour
Is it 4 or 5

[ferryman]

Of all the alerts made by Eddie during his career
How many have actually been confirmed as cadaver odour
Is it 4 or 5

37 deployments.

Can't remember how many bodies Eddie has actually found.

Something of that order.

[Robittybob1]

I realise you won't have a cite for that

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm
It was discussed in http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3504.msg346264#msg346264 in that thread at least it was in Martin Grime's report from memory.