A fresh look at Eddie the cadaver dog and those alerts.

[ferryman]

Eddie demonstrated finding cadaver scent in a jail. Some here must think blood could not have been in that jail or he would have alerted to it instead.

"We also saw video played in the courtroom to demonstrate how another dog, Eddie, found a sample pair of pants hidden in the Walker County Jail that was perfumed with a cadaver scent. Eddie is an English Springer Spaniel belonging to Martin Grime, a world-renown forensic K-9 expert based in the United Kingdom."

Sounds, suspiciously, like pseudo-scents to me .....

[pathfinder73]

Sounds, suspiciously, like pseudo-scents to me .....

Pseudo scent is an artificially chemically produced product that its manufacturers claim to resemble 'dead body scent'. Although some cadaver dog trainers have had limited success with its use in training, when tested on my dogs they showed no interest and it is not used as a training aid for them.

In my role as advisor to the U.S. Justice Department I have facilitated assessment of numerous cadaver search dog teams in the United States. These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

[John]

Dog nose best?

In 2000, freelance dog handler Mick Swindells and his Border collie Shep, a trained human cadaver dog, were called to a 15-acre field near Nottingham to help locate the suspected grave of a murder victim. Shep signalled in one spot and the surrounding area was quickly dug, but nothing was found. Later that day, police returned with an informant, who identified the grave. Shep had been out by a metre.

It transpired that, in digging the grave, the murderer had put his spade through a field drain, causing volatile compounds from the decomposing cadaver to enter the drain. About a metre downhill of the cadaver, the drain was broken, preventing those compounds from dispersing further. The drain had, in effect, separated the body from its scent, and Shep had signalled the dislodged source of that scent – the breakage in the drain.

On another occasion, Swindells and one of his dogs were searching a house when the dog signalled. A cache of bones was found beneath the floorboards at the spot – but they were later identified as pig. Pig carcasses are used in training cadaver dogs. But why would anybody hide a dead pig? The dating of the bones gave a clue: they had probably been buried during the Second World War, when pork was rationed and penalties for dabbling in the black market were severe.

Moral of this story, train dogs using dead pigs, then expect alerts to dead pig products!

[Alice Purjorick]

Dog nose best?

In 2000, freelance dog handler Mick Swindells and his Border collie Shep, a trained human cadaver dog, were called to a 15-acre field near Nottingham to help locate the suspected grave of a murder victim. Shep signalled in one spot and the surrounding area was quickly dug, but nothing was found. Later that day, police returned with an informant, who identified the grave. Shep had been out by a metre.

It transpired that, in digging the grave, the murderer had put his spade through a field drain, causing volatile compounds from the decomposing cadaver to enter the drain. About a metre downhill of the cadaver, the drain was broken, preventing those compounds from dispersing further. The drain had, in effect, separated the body from its scent, and Shep had signalled the dislodged source of that scent – the breakage in the drain.

On another occasion, Swindells and one of his dogs were searching a house when the dog signalled. A cache of bones was found beneath the floorboards at the spot – but they were later identified as pig. Pig carcasses are used in training cadaver dogs. But why would anybody hide a dead pig? The dating of the bones gave a clue: they had probably been buried during the Second World War, when pork was rationed and penalties for dabbling in the black market were severe.

Moral of this story, train dogs using dead pigs, then expect alerts to dead pig products!

From the dog alerts one can easily establish who didn't like bacon or pork snorker sarnies 

[sadie]

Dog nose best?

In 2000, freelance dog handler Mick Swindells and his Border collie Shep, a trained human cadaver dog, were called to a 15-acre field near Nottingham to help locate the suspected grave of a murder victim. Shep signalled in one spot and the surrounding area was quickly dug, but nothing was found. Later that day, police returned with an informant, who identified the grave. Shep had been out by a metre.

It transpired that, in digging the grave, the murderer had put his spade through a field drain, causing volatile compounds from the decomposing cadaver to enter the drain. About a metre downhill of the cadaver, the drain was broken, preventing those compounds from dispersing further. The drain had, in effect, separated the body from its scent, and Shep had signalled the dislodged source of that scent – the breakage in the drain.

On another occasion, Swindells and one of his dogs were searching a house when the dog signalled. A cache of bones was found beneath the floorboards at the spot – but they were later identified as pig. Pig carcasses are used in training cadaver dogs. But why would anybody hide a dead pig? The dating of the bones gave a clue: they had probably been buried during the Second World War, when pork was rationed and penalties for dabbling in the black market were severe.

Moral of this story, train dogs using dead pigs, then expect alerts to dead pig products!

During the war, people were encouraged to keep chicken, ducks or pigs ... and to grow their own veggies.  We kept ducks and ate their eggs, but never the birds cos we got too fond of them.  Dad also turned half the rear lawns over to potatoes, asparagus, rhubarb, apples, soft fruit, peas and beans etc and had an allotment.

My hubbies family had a share in a pig with three neighbours.  Everyone fed their slops and waste food to the pig and it was divided up when it had grown sufficiently.   Maybe some larger families kept their own pig ... and disposed of the smelly carcase in a deep,pit underground?

Maybe, maybe not? Dunno.

[ShiningInLuz]

During the war, people were encouraged to keep chicken, ducks or pigs ... and to grow their own veggies.  We kept ducks and ate their eggs, but never the birds cos we got too fond of them.  Dad also turned half the rear lawns over to potatoes, asparagus, rhubarb, apples, soft fruit, peas and beans etc and had an allotment.

My hubbies family had a share in a pig with three neighbours.  Everyone fed their slops and waste food to the pig and it was divided up when it had grown sufficiently.   Maybe some larger families kept their own pig ... and disposed of the smelly carcase in a deep,pit underground?

Maybe, maybe not? Dunno.

Strangely appropriate.  We will have a very large slice of rear garden which is designated as agricultural land.  The only reason we can think of is re WW3 and the type of necessity you have described above.  We spent a couple of hours talking about it earlier today.  How odd!

Hopefully, we will not be training a dog to find pig remains!

[Alice Purjorick]

Strangely appropriate.  We will have a very large slice of rear garden which is designated as agricultural land.  The only reason we can think of is re WW3 and the type of necessity you have described above.  We spent a couple of hours talking about it earlier today.  How odd!

Hopefully, we will not be training a dog to find pig remains!

Are you American?
American: WW1; WW2; etc
English equivalent. First World War, The Great War or The '14-'18 War; Second World War.   
 

[ferryman]

Are you American?
American: WW1; WW2; etc
English equivalent. First World War, The Great War or The '14-'18 War; Second World War.   

English website

http://www.greatwar.co.uk/

[Robittybob1]

As I see it - Cadaver dog signals to the past presence of human bodies, body parts or decomposed tissue that dried slowly so it could putrefy.  So I see 2 sites where the cadaver dog indicated in 5A:
1.  At the wardrobe in the main bedroom
2.  behind the couch in the lounge

The blood dog reacts to fresh dried blood (i.e. blood that has dried fast enough not to decompose.)  It does not determine whose blood it was.
3.  The blood dog reacted to blood behind the couch.

So the question is: Does the blood relate to a cadaver?
Is the blood related to MBM or not?

In the end basically it tells us:
A.  someone bled and
B.  some dead human had been in the apartment in the past. 
There maybe no causal relationship between A and B so you can't say the bleeding caused the death.

[Alice Purjorick]

English website

http://www.greatwar.co.uk/

How appalling. The website has clearly been done by them wot has taken to the Merkin's terminology     

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKR3CbTCjLw

[pegasus]

A very informative technique -  watch the wardrobe alert footage carefully - exactly what point in space did Eddie sniff immediately before barking?

[Robittybob1]

A very informative technique -  watch the wardrobe alert footage carefully - exactly what point in space did Eddie sniff immediately before barking?

From memory it was nose up.

[Admin]

As I see it - Cadaver dog signals to the past presence of human bodies, body parts or decomposed tissue that dried slowly so it could putrefy.  So I see 2 sites where the cadaver dog indicated in 5A:
1.  At the wardrobe in the main bedroom
2.  behind the couch in the lounge

The blood dog reacts to fresh dried blood (i.e. blood that has dried fast enough not to decompose.)  It does not determine whose blood it was.
3.  The blood dog reacted to blood behind the couch.

So the question is: Does the blood relate to a cadaver?
Is the blood related to MBM or not?

In the end basically it tells us:
A.  someone bled and
B.  some dead human had been in the apartment in the past.
There maybe no causal relationship between A and B so you can't say the bleeding caused the death.

It most certainly doesn't, there is no way of knowing what Eddie alerted to, it could have been one of many substances.

Have you still not grasped the fact that Eddie's alerts were unconfirmed ie it was never established what they related to, they had no evidential reliability.

[pegasus]

From memory it was nose up.

Yes but his exact nose location during the last sniff just before he alerts is in one particular shelf volume IMO.

[Robittybob1]

Yes but his exact nose location during the last sniff just before he alerts is in one particular shelf volume IMO.

So you think you can define an alert even more closely that the general nature expressed by Martin.  He worried about air currents.