Author Topic: A fresh look at Eddie the cadaver dog and those alerts.  (Read 59346 times)

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ferryman

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Re: A fresh look at Eddie the cadaver dog and those alerts.
« Reply #195 on: July 28, 2016, 07:19:44 PM »
They are facts Ferryman. Many reported sightings and nothing to show for it. The dogs have not been proven to be wrong in this case either and new forensic tests/results have not been confirmed by OG.

Eddie was wrong:

With cuddle-cat (in either playing with it without alerting or, according to Grime, alerting to the toy, second time of asking, when the toy was hidden in a cupboard).

Eddie either got it wrong in not alerting to clothing in the villa; or he got it wrong (second time of asking) when exactly the same clothing was re-examined in the gym.

All ways up, the reputations of the McCanns suffered.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 01:27:03 AM by John »

Offline pathfinder73

Re: A fresh look at Eddie the cadaver dog and those alerts.
« Reply #196 on: July 28, 2016, 07:55:37 PM »
Day 9 of Castillo Murder Trial Hones in on Phone Records
 2016-06-02

The first-degree murder trial of Braulio M. Castillo entered the ninth day of testimony today, bringing to light phone and text records that prosecutors say show Castillo was trying to create an alibi.

Castillo, of Ashburn, is accused of killing his estranged wife, Michelle, on March 19, 2014.

The case began when Michelle Castillo’s body was found hanging in a basement bathroom in her Belmont Station home. Loudoun County Sheriff’s Office investigators say Castillo entered her home, killed Michelle during a struggle in her bedroom while their children slept in rooms down the hall and then staged a scene to make it appear she hanged herself in a basement bathroom.

On the stand today, Detective T.F. Butler, with the Loudoun County Sheriff’s Office Computer Forensic Unit, told the jury that Castillo had searched from his phone on March 19, 2014, how to treat a black eye. Lead investor Mark McCaffrey noted scrapes and a black eye on Castillo’s face earlier in the trial.

At one point, with the jury out of the courtroom, the prosecution and the defense attorneys went head-to-head, debating over the possible admission of notes found on Castillo’s phone. The notes, which the prosecution believe were written by Castillo, provide an account of Michelle’s whereabouts and browser search history.

The defense attorneys said that admitting those notes as evidence would break attorney-client privilege because they were saved copies of emails between Castillo and his divorce attorney at the time.

They went as far as to ask the judge to declare a mistrial, saying the prosecutors should have never looked at the content of the emails.

Judge Stephen E. Sincavage denied the motion for mistrial, and said the documents could be admitted as evidence, ruling that Castillo waived his rights to keep that material private when he handed it over to Detective Mark McCaffrey, who was the lead investigator in the case.

Prosecutors continued questioning Butler, asking about deleted messages found on Castillo’s phone. The selected messages revealed Castillo sent text messages to two of his children and to Michelle the morning her body was found.

The defense questioned whether the line of questioning was an attempt by prosecutors to prove Castillo tried to set up an alibi. Butler told the defense that it was not uncommon for Castillo to text Michelle during early hours of the morning.

“It wasn’t the norm, but it wasn’t unusual,” he said.

Butler said he was also told to look for searches of the word “hanging,” and the only evidence he found were phrases such as “hanging out” or “hanging with friends.” He also mentioned that he did not find any searches of suicide or depression on the victim’s phone.

Law enforcement’s trained cadaver and blood scent dogs, which were brought to Michelle Castillo’s home a few weeks after her body was found, were the focus of testimony Wednesday.

The prosecution is working to prove that Castillo had killed his wife in the bedroom and later moved her body to the basement bathroom to stage a suicide.

Rex Stockham, an FBI deployment coordinator, and K-9 handler Martin Grime took the stand, attesting to the credibility of scent detection dogs Keela and Morse, along with revealing what they had found.

Keela, a human blood detection dog, is trained to pinpoint dried blood, while Morse, a victim recovery dog, is trained to detect the scent of human remains. Keela was directed to search the master bedroom, and found no traces of blood other than a drawer containing women’s underwear. Grime noted that isn’t uncommon because of the scent of menstrual blood.

Stockham and Grime said Morse detected two areas of human decomposition, near the bathtub in the bathroom of the basement, where Michelle’s body was found, and the carpet at the foot of the bed in the master bedroom.

Grime testified that Morse’s sniff rate increased when in the bedroom and basement, notifying him that there was the possibility of human decomposition. “All I can really do is tell you whether the dog gave a positive or negative response,” he said. “He gave a positive response [to human decomposition] in the basement and bedroom.”

The defense countered, arguing that the positively identified odor in the bedroom may have been transferred by investigators, a possibility to which the handlers did not deny. Defense attorneys argued that it is impossible to determine whether Morse’s alert was accurate.

“If it’s not confirmed that there was a dead body, you don’t know if it’s right or wrong,” defense attorney Jonathan Shapiro said.

Grime stressed that people will challenge positive responses, but not negative ones. “I am interpreting what is happening within the dog’s brain,” he said.  “As soon as the dog entered the bedroom, he exhibited behavioral changes.”

The trial is scheduled to run through June 10. If convicted, Castillo could face 20 years to life in prison.

http://loudounnow.com/2016/06/02/day-9-of-castillo-murder-trial-hones-in-on-phone-records/

Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

stephen25000

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Re: A fresh look at Eddie the cadaver dog and those alerts.
« Reply #197 on: July 28, 2016, 09:51:25 PM »
deleted

Grime is not responsible for this case.

It's about time you got a sense of perspective.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 01:36:31 AM by John »

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: A fresh look at Eddie the cadaver dog and those alerts.
« Reply #198 on: July 28, 2016, 09:56:36 PM »
Grime is not responsible for this case.

It's about time you got a sense of perspective.

Giving due regard to the hostage-to-fortune that is the loose cannon Goncalo Amaral, it is reasonable to speculate that, either but for Grime; or if Grime had handled his dogs professionally, Kate and Gerry McCann might never have been made arguidos. 
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 01:36:42 AM by John »

stephen25000

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Re: A fresh look at Eddie the cadaver dog and those alerts.
« Reply #199 on: July 28, 2016, 10:07:02 PM »
Giving due regard to the hostage-to-fortune that is the loose cannon Goncalo Amaral, it is reasonable to speculate that, either but for Grime; or if Grime had handled his dogs professionally, Kate and Gerry McCann might never have been made arguidos.

You got the names at the end right.

None of the others would have a look in, but for these two.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: A fresh look at Eddie the cadaver dog and those alerts.
« Reply #200 on: July 28, 2016, 10:31:12 PM »
Grime is not responsible for this case.

It's about time you got a sense of perspective.

grime is responsible for the misrepresentation of the dog alerts....totally responsible
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 01:37:12 AM by John »

Offline pegasus

Re: A fresh look at Eddie the cadaver dog and those alerts.
« Reply #201 on: July 28, 2016, 11:03:18 PM »
(snip) ... Looking at the size of the suitcase it should have been visible ... (snip)
Do you agree that the shelf left-right width is greater than the suitcase length Robbity?.

Offline misty

Re: A fresh look at Eddie the cadaver dog and those alerts.
« Reply #202 on: July 29, 2016, 12:17:17 AM »
Do you agree that the shelf left-right width is greater than the suitcase length Robbity?.

What is your best guesstimate of the suitcase dimensions please, Pegasus?

Offline Robittybob1

Re: A fresh look at Eddie the cadaver dog and those alerts.
« Reply #203 on: July 29, 2016, 01:19:20 AM »
Do you agree that the shelf left-right width is greater than the suitcase length Robbity?.
I agreed it is possible.  I do not know the dimensions of anything.  I was just looking at the problem from logic with the point of view being "everyone's best interest".
Moderation
John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline John

Re: A fresh look at Eddie the cadaver dog and those alerts.
« Reply #204 on: July 29, 2016, 01:43:20 AM »
Kate Prout was reported missing on the 4th November 2007.
Eddie alerted on the 19th December 2007.
That's a total of 46 days later.
Eddie was proven correct on 25th November 2011, when Kate Prout's remains were formerly identified.

Eddie alerted in the matrimonial home, several hundred yards from where Prout murdered and buried his wife's body.


Actually, Adrian Prout murdered his wife in the family bungalow and moved her body to the back of his Land Rover before going to the pub.  She was not strangled out on the farm.

There is no getting away from it that both Eddie and Keela were successful in several cases.  However, that success is no guarantee that the alerts made to objects in Portugal were in any way sinister.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2016, 09:35:35 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: A fresh look at Eddie the cadaver dog and those alerts.
« Reply #205 on: July 29, 2016, 07:44:40 AM »
"There is always a possibility of contamination of odours by transferral. EVRD does not make a distinction; he responds with a certain behaviour for which he was trained when he recognizes an odour. He does not identify the reasons for the presence of the odour nor does he identify suspects. Forensic confirmation and specialized investigation methods will determine the reasons and the suspicions. In order to undoubtedly affirm there must be a confirmation of the alert signals made by the dog."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

Grime testified that there was no methodology to test the dogs' responses when there is no recoverable material, and that the odor of decomposition may transfer if a person touches a dead body and then touches something else.

At trial, FBI Canine Program Manager Rex Stockham testified as an expert in forensic canine operation. Stockham testified about the process of training and testing victim recovery dogs. Stockham's protocol called for regular single-and double-blind testing of dogs throughout their working lives. Stockham's program had three full-time handlers in its program, including Martin Grime. Stockham testified that he had tested Morse and Keela, Grime's dogs, and that both dogs had accuracy ratings in the high 90 percent range. Stockham testified that dogs have been able to smell the odor of decomposition as soon as 2 hours after a victim's death, or years after a victim's burial.

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/mi-court-of-appeals/1683760.html
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 08:49:35 AM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: A fresh look at Eddie the cadaver dog and those alerts.
« Reply #206 on: July 29, 2016, 10:06:28 AM »
"There is always a possibility of contamination of odours by transferral. EVRD does not make a distinction; he responds with a certain behaviour for which he was trained when he recognizes an odour. He does not identify the reasons for the presence of the odour nor does he identify suspects. Forensic confirmation and specialized investigation methods will determine the reasons and the suspicions. In order to undoubtedly affirm there must be a confirmation of the alert signals made by the dog."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

Grime testified that there was no methodology to test the dogs' responses when there is no recoverable material, and that the odor of decomposition may transfer if a person touches a dead body and then touches something else.

At trial, FBI Canine Program Manager Rex Stockham testified as an expert in forensic canine operation. Stockham testified about the process of training and testing victim recovery dogs. Stockham's protocol called for regular single-and double-blind testing of dogs throughout their working lives. Stockham's program had three full-time handlers in its program, including Martin Grime. Stockham testified that he had tested Morse and Keela, Grime's dogs, and that both dogs had accuracy ratings in the high 90 percent range. Stockham testified that dogs have been able to smell the odor of decomposition as soon as 2 hours after a victim's death, or years after a victim's burial.

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/mi-court-of-appeals/1683760.html

We would need to see details of the test to see what was assessed

Offline sadie

Re: A fresh look at Eddie the cadaver dog and those alerts.
« Reply #207 on: July 29, 2016, 12:36:21 PM »
I would say the opposite the indication were positive  but since no physical cadaver has been found you could say they are wanting.

There were indications, yep, but either
1.  Keela had not been shown the places indicated to give her opinion, (both dogs needed to be shown the same things), or
2.  the places and things alerted to had flaws ... such as Martin misinterpreted what was being alerted to as in the Cuddlecat fiasco, or
3.  Gerrys blood was alerted to (keyfob).  So the car would smell of "gone off" live persons blood.  Both dogs alerted to live blood.
4.  Eddie was rushed indecently around other premises and around other cars on the car park, but repeatedly pointed to things used by the Mccanns.  A totally unbalanced search imo.
5.  Seans T shirt was alerted to.  Too small for Madeleine  %£&)**#
6.  Eddie didn't go into the car.  Anyway both he and Keela alert to "gone off" live persons blood
7.  Blood under the tiles in 5A turned out to be the blood of a man.
8.  Kates clothes were alerted to but as a doctor, she had dealt with dead bodies in the
preceding weeks.  The cadavar odour is very difficult to get rid of.  It sticks around for a very long time on clothes.  When my daughter was at medical school, she bewailed the fact that the death smell got everywhere on her and was a real put off for boyfriends.
9.  Blood spots on the wall.  The Eddie search was after another tenant in 5A had had a shaving accident and walked around the place bleeding for an extended period.
10.  The rear garden (that people could see into!).  Could be the gardener had cut himself or could be that that corner was the quietest place that someone taken short could find to relieve himself.

What have I missed?


To remind anyone reading
Keela alerts to blood from a live person, but not fresh blood.  It has to have started to "go off
Eddie alerts to blood from a live person, but not fresh blood.   He also alerts to Cadavar odour, both from pig and human,
and also to bodily fluids, but these have to have started to go off too..


For the alert to have been for Cadavar Odour then the live person blood component has to be ruled out.  Both dogs have to have sniffed the spot. 


Both dogs have to have sniffed the spot.  Then and only then, IF Eddie had alerted there was a chance that it was because of Cadavar odour (pig or human) or bodily fluids.   

But it was essential that whatever was causing the alert was forensically examined to confirm that the "chance" of it being Cadavar odour, became reality.



If only one dog had sniffed the spot, then it WAS NOT cadavar odour.


Amendments thanks to Angelo


Offline Angelo222

Re: A fresh look at Eddie the cadaver dog and those alerts.
« Reply #208 on: July 29, 2016, 12:46:33 PM »
To remind anyone reading

Keela alerts to blood from a live person
Eddie alerts to blood from a live person, Cadavar odour, both from pig and human, bodily fluids.


For the alert to have been for Cadavar Odour then the live person blood component has to be ruled out.  Both dogs have to have sniffed the spot. 


Both dogs have to have sniffed the spot.  Then and only then, IF Eddie had alerted there was a chance that it was because of Cadavar odour (pig or human) or bodily fluids.   But it was essential that whatever was causing the alert was forensically examined to confirm that the "chance" of it being Cadaver odour, became reality.


If only one dog had sniffed the spot, then it WAS NOT cadaver odour.

This is a difficult subject granted Sadie and you have tried to explain it in simple terms but you haven't pointed out that neither dog alerted to fresh blood or other fluids.  The material had to be dessicated and not recent.

Wasn't Eddie also trained on ancient pulverised human skull material in an attempt to circumvent the law in the UK which prevents human cadavers being used to train dogs?

It is also worth pointing out again that anyone who comes into contact with cadaverine will carry the scent on them or on their clothes for some considerable time.  It's not something you can get rid of in a hurry.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 01:12:10 PM by Angelo222 »
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Alfie

  • Guest
Re: A fresh look at Eddie the cadaver dog and those alerts.
« Reply #209 on: July 29, 2016, 05:40:16 PM »
Eddie alerted in the matrimonial home, several hundred yards from where Prout murdered and buried his wife's body.



Actually, Adrian Prout murdered his wife in the family bungalow and moved her body to the back of his Land Rover before going to the pub.  She was not strangled out on the farm.

There is no getting away from it that both Eddie and Keela were successful in several cases.  However, that success is no guarantee that the alerts made to objects in Portugal were in any way sinister.

This thread has now been edited.

Wrong.  Prout murdered his wife in the hunting lodge, not in the family home where Eddie alerted.  In fact there is no evidence that the body was ever brought into the bungallow where Eddie alerted, and certainly no alert by the dog in the hunting lodge or the Land Rover into which the body was placed and driven to the pub.
http://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/kate-prout-inquest-finally-hears-husband/story-16000525-detail/story.html