Author Topic: Brexit has well and truly begun!  (Read 46184 times)

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Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1950 on: August 08, 2019, 04:21:04 PM »
There really is no need to be that dramatic, democracy has not been denied. The plan is still to leave, it just hasn't happened as quickly a some would like. It's taken so long because they want to find a way to leave the EU whilst having as little a detrimental impact on our economy (and our Union!) as possible. Which makes sense to me.

But that really wasn't the point I was making anyway. I was asking why those like yourself that are up in arms about a perceived slight against their precious democracy do not seem to give a damn that a new Prime Minister and government can be put in power without a mandate from the general public.

The two things are not related.
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Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1951 on: August 08, 2019, 04:31:05 PM »
An excellent comment under an article about Brexit in today’s Times

I guess I just don't understand.  You can talk about stuff 'in a spirit of friendliness' but the logic of the situation is wholly against the UK.

If we leave the EU we will no longer be part of the EU's political, legal, insurance and logistical framework.  For both ourselves and for the EU there would be divergence.  A border would automatically form to express this!  Most of the EU's border is sea luckily but where it is not (the notorious Polish-Ukrainian border!) it is a nightmare.  If we are not in the customs union and the single market then this has to be expressed as a hard border.

But we can't have a hard border because of the sheer bad luck that the EU/UK border runs across a sensitive island with an international treaty about there not being a hard border.  This has been made clear by the EU and by the USA and by rational people in the UK.  Nobody imagined the UK would be thick enough to leave the EU so no provision was made for such a self-hating change.  Ireland is not, as many Brexit people seem to believe, a sort of 'optional country' that should go away or grow up or whatever.  It is part of the vastly larger EU.

There is therefore a limit on how separate we can in practice be from the EU.  This was expressed in May's deal.  May's deal got us out within this external constraint.  It is also helpful to us as the resulting alignment stops us absurdly 'crashing out'.  In practice almost nobody at all in the UK who is sane cares about this level of alignment.  It formalizes what is there anyway: that as an offshore set of islands next to the rest of Europe that is still in the EU, the UK will not call the shots!  But that is what we voted for.

The UK government might as well declare that we can in fact drink saltwater or hold our breath indefinitely.

If we leave on 'no deal' in this context (and with the EU, Japan and the USA all saying this would be unacceptable) then the entire government should be put on trial for stupidity as much as for treason.  We will still wind up doing what the EU tells us, but not as a serious partner but as a laughed-at supplicant.

Boris needs the DUP to have a Parliamentary majority. The DUP don't want the backstop.
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Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1952 on: August 08, 2019, 06:41:10 PM »
Boris needs the DUP to have a Parliamentary majority. The DUP don't want the backstop.
And?
"The answer is that no-one here believes the parents were directly involved in MM's disappearance" - G-Unit.

Offline Carana

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1953 on: August 11, 2019, 12:17:09 PM »

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1954 on: August 11, 2019, 12:39:08 PM »
And?

Therefore no deal is his only option. If a General Election is called the UK will leave while we have no sitting Parliament. So a vote of no confidence is unlikely to be instigated. The Government has always been in charge, now the idea is that Parliament is paramount. Boris is certainly causing alarm.
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Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1955 on: August 11, 2019, 02:44:29 PM »
Therefore no deal is his only option. If a General Election is called the UK will leave while we have no sitting Parliament. So a vote of no confidence is unlikely to be instigated. The Government has always been in charge, now the idea is that Parliament is paramount. Boris is certainly causing alarm.
He’s certainly causing confusion, with his claim that the chances of no deal are a million to one as we hurtle swiftly towards thr cliff edge (again!)
"The answer is that no-one here believes the parents were directly involved in MM's disappearance" - G-Unit.

Offline Baz

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1956 on: August 12, 2019, 01:29:17 PM »
The two things are not related.

They're both results of a supposedly democratic process. One of which has gotten people (like you) talking passionately about how important the will of the people is. The other, suddenly the will of the people doesn't matter.

Offline Miss Taken Identity

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1957 on: August 15, 2019, 12:14:07 AM »
I am fully aware that the public don't get to vote for our leader thanks. In fact that was basically the point of my post. How barely democratic that process is.

Oh and just to inform you... the public do not vote for a party, they vote for an MP.

They actually vote for  the party who select an MP or should I say impose one.  It is party policies and politics. People do not usually say they are voting for  mr A or ms B  they say I am voting Tory or labour /other.

Tony WMD Bliar got into No 10 on a majority of  a minority of the population!

We have a party politic version of democracy- the head of the party gets the top job if elected!

So to make it look easier to understand. The majority of people voted CONSERVATIVE at the last election. They did not vote for Teresa May specifically.

 Many Labour suporters are not voting Labour because they do not like Corbyn as their leader.

I don't involve myself with time wasting personal dirt digging on specific sides of the house- It is pointless and childish playground  talk 'she hit me'- I never hit him blah blah. boring and pointless.
'Never underestimate the power of stupid people'... George Carlin

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1958 on: August 15, 2019, 09:34:57 AM »
They're both results of a supposedly democratic process. One of which has gotten people (like you) talking passionately about how important the will of the people is. The other, suddenly the will of the people doesn't matter.

Very different democratic processes however. One is a national process, the other isn't.

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Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1959 on: August 15, 2019, 09:50:23 AM »
So all these MP's who reject the thought of a no deal exit from the EU 'for the good of the country' are rejecting the proposal being suggested by Her Majesty's Opposition. Why? Because they are horrified at the idea of an interim government headed by the Leader of Her Majesty's Oposition. It seems to me that they could be putting party politices before the good of the country.
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Offline Miss Taken Identity

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1960 on: August 15, 2019, 01:40:17 PM »
So all these MP's who reject the thought of a no deal exit from the EU 'for the good of the country' are rejecting the proposal being suggested by Her Majesty's Opposition. Why? Because they are horrified at the idea of an interim government headed by the Leader of Her Majesty's Oposition. It seems to me that they could be putting party politices before the good of the country.

Indeed!  and is it really democratic to have a PM  head of a party which was VOTED IN TO 'RUN' the country should be ousted and replacecd by a leader who was NOT elected by the country AND the party was not voted for to run the country. this does look like a stalin style takeover.  and look what he did to his 'countrymen/women. Worse than Hitler,slaughtered more.
'Never underestimate the power of stupid people'... George Carlin

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1961 on: August 15, 2019, 06:02:28 PM »
So all these MP's who reject the thought of a no deal exit from the EU 'for the good of the country' are rejecting the proposal being suggested by Her Majesty's Opposition. Why? Because they are horrified at the idea of an interim government headed by the Leader of Her Majesty's Oposition. It seems to me that they could be putting party politices before the good of the country.
No, they are definitely putting the good of the country before anything else.  The worst thing imaginable for this country, even worse than Brexit is Brexit under Jeremy Corbyn.  What a nightmare scenario that would be IMO.
"The answer is that no-one here believes the parents were directly involved in MM's disappearance" - G-Unit.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1962 on: August 15, 2019, 11:44:39 PM »
No, they are definitely putting the good of the country before anything else.  The worst thing imaginable for this country, even worse than Brexit is Brexit under Jeremy Corbyn.  What a nightmare scenario that would be IMO.

Well, while they're still fighting Johnson is forging ahead and the clock is ticking. 
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Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1963 on: August 16, 2019, 07:16:10 AM »
Well, while they're still fighting Johnson is forging ahead and the clock is ticking.
What exactly is Johnson forging ahead with, apart from regularly shaking the magic money tree?
"The answer is that no-one here believes the parents were directly involved in MM's disappearance" - G-Unit.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1964 on: August 16, 2019, 08:11:23 AM »
What exactly is Johnson forging ahead with, apart from regularly shaking the magic money tree?

With whatever his plans are. He has stated that the UK will leave the EU on October 31st, deal or no deal. He seems to be playing a game of chicken with the EU. He has said what he wants and they have said no. It remains to be seen who, if anyone, will give way.

Many in the UK parliament want to stop us leaving without a deal, but they are so divided that they haven't been able to come up with an agreed strategy to stop it happening.
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