Author Topic: Brexit has well and truly begun!  (Read 64342 times)

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Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1965 on: August 16, 2019, 08:18:10 AM »
With whatever his plans are. He has stated that the UK will leave the EU on October 31st, deal or no deal. He seems to be playing a game of chicken with the EU. He has said what he wants and they have said no. It remains to be seen who, if anyone, will give way.

Many in the UK parliament want to stop us leaving without a deal, but they are so divided that they haven't been able to come up with an agreed strategy to stop it happening.
And as soon as we exit with no deal we are going to have to spend years trying to negotiate a trade deal with the EU who won’t really be regarding the UK with any great fondness.  Excellent plan!
"The answer is that no-one here believes the parents were directly involved in MM's disappearance" - G-Unit.

Offline Baz

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1966 on: August 16, 2019, 10:02:10 AM »
They actually vote for  the party who select an MP or should I say impose one.  It is party policies and politics. People do not usually say they are voting for  mr A or ms B  they say I am voting Tory or labour /other.

Tony WMD Bliar got into No 10 on a majority of  a minority of the population!

We have a party politic version of democracy- the head of the party gets the top job if elected!

So to make it look easier to understand. The majority of people voted CONSERVATIVE at the last election. They did not vote for Teresa May specifically.

 Many Labour suporters are not voting Labour because they do not like Corbyn as their leader.

I don't involve myself with time wasting personal dirt digging on specific sides of the house- It is pointless and childish playground  talk 'she hit me'- I never hit him blah blah. boring and pointless.

You can not go into a voting booth and vote for a party. You HAVE to vote for an MP. I know in practise many people will just cast their vote depending on the party being represented but even these people have to vote for an MP. It's that simple.

Very different democratic processes however. One is a national process, the other isn't.

EXACTLY!!! How does that not infuriate people who claim democracy to be so supremely important. Surely the top job in the country is the most important time for the democratic process to be national?? If anything, the party choosing the Prime Minister is barely democracy at all.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1967 on: August 16, 2019, 09:56:40 PM »
And as soon as we exit with no deal we are going to have to spend years trying to negotiate a trade deal with the EU who won’t really be regarding the UK with any great fondness.  Excellent plan!

The MP's should have voted for May's deal then. What are they doing now? Fighting over who gets to be interim PM if a vote of no confidence topples the Tories. What a crew!
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Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1968 on: August 16, 2019, 11:25:20 PM »
The MP's should have voted for May's deal then. What are they doing now? Fighting over who gets to be interim PM if a vote of no confidence topples the Tories. What a crew!
I agree, they should have.  Some did, but not enough.  Labour refused to support it - why?  What was their agenda exactly? 
"The answer is that no-one here believes the parents were directly involved in MM's disappearance" - G-Unit.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1969 on: August 17, 2019, 09:08:00 AM »
I agree, they should have.  Some did, but not enough.  Labour refused to support it - why?  What was their agenda exactly?

They have only themselves to blame then. May wasn't completely committed to Brexit at all costs. This lot appear to be quite different.

In the event that a vote of no confidence takes place and is carried the goverment has 14 days to try to win a vote of confidence. That takes us to September 2nd if the vote was taken on Monday. If the government fails a general election follows, during which parliament is dissolved. It takes @ 6 weeks to organise a general election, which takes us to October 21st. It seems to me time is not on parliament's side. How can they stop the goverment calling an election, even if they had an agreement on this interim government?
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Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1970 on: August 17, 2019, 07:18:26 PM »
They have only themselves to blame then. May wasn't completely committed to Brexit at all costs. This lot appear to be quite different.

In the event that a vote of no confidence takes place and is carried the goverment has 14 days to try to win a vote of confidence. That takes us to September 2nd if the vote was taken on Monday. If the government fails a general election follows, during which parliament is dissolved. It takes @ 6 weeks to organise a general election, which takes us to October 21st. It seems to me time is not on parliament's side. How can they stop the goverment calling an election, even if they had an agreement on this interim government?
No, May wasn’t “do or die”, but frankly I think dying is not really a sensible option, despite Boris’ promise.  Boris plans to call an election close to D-Day and therefore parliament will be in a state of suspension on 31st October so that the parliamentary process can be by-passed,  How jolly democratic. 
"The answer is that no-one here believes the parents were directly involved in MM's disappearance" - G-Unit.

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1971 on: August 18, 2019, 07:38:23 AM »
No-deal Brexit preparations: the leaked Operation Yellowhammer document
August 18 2019, 12:01am,

BASE SCENARIO

When the UK ceases to be a member of the European Union in October 2019, all rights and reciprocal arrangements with the EU end.

● The UK reverts fully to “third country” status. The relationship between the UK and the European Union as a whole is unsympathetic, with many member states (under pressure from the European Commission) unwilling to engage bilaterally and implementing protections unilaterally, though some member states may be more understanding.

● No bilateral deals have been concluded with individual member states, with the exception of the reciprocal agreement on social security co-ordination with the Republic of Ireland. EU citizens living in the UK can retain broadly all rights and status that they were entitled before the UK’s exit from the EU, at the point of exit.

● Public and business readiness for no-deal will remain at a low level, and will decrease to lower levels, because the absence of a clear decision on the form of EU Exit (customs union, no deal etc) does not provide a concrete situation for third parties to prepare for. Readiness will be further limited by increasing EU Exit fatigue caused by the second extension of article 50.

● Business readiness will not be uniform – in general large businesses that work across sectors are likely to have better developed counting plans than small and medium-size businesses. Business readiness will be compounded by seasonal effects and factors such as warehouse availability.

● Private sector companies’ behaviour will be governed by commercial considerations, unless they are influenced otherwise.

● Her Majesty’s government will act in accordance with the rule of law, including by identifying the powers it is using to take specific actions.

●Risks associated with autumn and winter, such as severe weather, flooding and seasonal flu, could exacerbate any effects and stretch the resources of partners and responders.

KEY PLANNING ASSUMPTIONS

Exit day
For the purpose of freight flow and traffic management, as October 31 is a Thursday, Day 1 of Exit is now on a Friday rather than the weekend, which is not to our advantage. Exit Day may coincide with the half-term holiday, which varies across the UK.

Member states
In a small number of instances where the impacts of Brexit would be felt negatively in the EU as well as in the UK, member states may act in a way that could benefit the UK.

Channel ports
France will impose EU mandatory controls on UK goods on Day 1 of No Deal and has built infrastructure and IT systems to manage and process customs declarations and to support a risk-based control regime. On Day 1 of No Deal, 50%-85% of HGVs travelling via the short straits may not be ready for French customs. The lack of trader readiness combined with limited space in French ports to hold “unready” HGVs could reduce the flow rate to 40%-60% of current levels within one day.

The worst disruption to the short Channel crossings might last 3 months before flow rates rise to about 50%-70% (as more traders get prepared), although disruption could continue much longer. In the event of serious disruption, the French might act to ensure some flow through the short Channel crossings.

Disruption to Channel flow would also cause significant queues in Kent and delays to HGVs attempting to use the routes to travel to France. In a reasonable worst-case scenario, HGVs could face a maximum delay of 1½-2½ days before being able to cross the border. HGVs caught up in congestion in the UK will be unable to return to the EU to collect another load and some logistics firms may decide to avoid the route. Analysis to date has suggested a low risk of significant sustained queues at ports outside Kent that have high volumes of EU traffic, but the Border Delivery Group will continue to work directly with stakeholders at those ports to support planning readiness.

Border checks
UK citizens travelling to and from the EU may be subject to increased immigration checks at border posts. This may lead to passenger delays at St Pancras, Cheriton (Channel tunnel) and Dover, where border controls are juxtaposed. Depending on what plans EU member states put in place to cope with these increased immigration checks, it is likely delays will occur for UK arrivals and departures at EU airports and ports. This could cause some disruption on transport services. Travellers may decide to use alternative routes to complete their journey.

Drugs and disease
i) The Border Delivery Group/Department for Transport planning assumption on reduced flow rates describes a pre-mitigation reasonable worst-case flow rate that could be as low as 40% on Day 1 of No Deal via the short straits [main Channel crossings], with significant disruption lasting up to six months. Unmitigated, this will have an impact on the supply of medicines and medical supplies.

Supply chains for medicines and medical products rely heavily on the short straits, which makes them particularly vulnerable to severe delays: three-quarters of medicines come via the short straits. Supply chains are also highly regulated and require transportation that meets strict Good Distribution Practices. This can include limits on transit times and temperature-controlled conditions. While some products can be stockpiled, others cannot because of short shelf lives. It will not be practical to stockpile six months’ supplies. The Department for Health and Social Care is developing a multi-layered approach to mitigate these risks.

ii) Any disruption that reduces, delays or stops the supply of medicines for UK veterinary use would reduce our ability to prevent and control disease outbreaks, with potential harm to animal health and welfare, the environment and wider food safety and availability, as well as, in the case of zoonotic diseases, posing a risk to human health. Industry stockpiling will not be able to match the 4-12 weeks’ stockpiling that took place in March 2019. Air freight capacity and the special import scheme are not a financially viable way to mitigate risks associated with veterinary medicine availability issues.


Food and water
i) Certain types of fresh food supply will decrease. Critical elements of the food supply chain (such as ingredients, chemicals and packaging) may be in short supply. In combination, these two factors will not cause an overall shortage of food in the UK but will reduce availability and choice and increase the price, which will affect vulnerable groups. The UK growing season will have come to an end, so the agri-food supply chain will be under increased pressure for food retailers. Government will not be able to fully anticipate all effects on the agri-food supply chain. There is a risk that panic buying will disrupt food supplies.

ii) Public water services are likely to remain largely unaffected, thanks to actions now being taken by water companies. The most significant single risk is a failure in the chemicals supply chain. The likelihood of this is considered low, and the impact is likely to be local, affecting only hundreds of thousands of people. Water companies are well prepared for any disruption: they have significant stocks of all critical chemicals, extensive monitoring of their chemicals supply chains (including transport and deliveries) and sharing agreements in place. In the event of a supply chain failure, or the need to respond rapidly to other water supply incidents, urgent action may need to be taken to make sure people continue to have access to clean water.

Law and order
Law enforcement data and information-sharing between the UK and the EU will be disrupted.

Financial services and insurance
Some cross-border UK financial services will be disrupted. A small minority of insurance payments from UK insurers into the EU may be delayed.

Data
The EU will not have made a data decision with regard to the UK before exit. This will disrupt the flow of personal data from the EU, where an alternative legal basis for transfer is not in place. In no-deal, an adequacy assessment could take years.

Fuel
Traffic disruption caused by border delays could affect fuel distribution in the local area, particularly if traffic queues In Kent block the Dartford crossing, which would disrupt fuel supply in London and the southeast. Customer behaviour could lead to shortages in other parts of the country.

Tariffs make UK petrol exports to the EU uncompetitive. Industry had plans to mitigate the impact on refinery margins and profitability, but UK government policy to set petrol import tariffs at 0% inadvertently undermines these plans. This leads to big financial losses and the closure of two refineries (which are converted to import terminals) with about 2,000 direct job losses. Resulting strike action at refineries would lead to disruptions to fuel availability for 1-2 weeks in the regions they directly supply. Government analysis of the impact of no-deal on refineries continues.

Northern Ireland
On Day 1 of No Deal, Her Majesty’s government will activate the “no new checks with limited exceptions” model announced on March 13, establishing a legislative framework and essential operations and system on the ground, to avoid an immediate risk of a return to a hard border on the UK side.

The model is likely to prove unsustainable because of economic, legal and biosecurity risks. With the UK becoming a “third [non-EU] country”, the automatic application of EU tariffs and regulatory requirements for goods entering Ireland will severely disrupt trade. The expectation is that some businesses will stop trading or relocate to avoid either paying tariffs that will make them uncompetitive or trading illegally; others will continue to trade but will experience higher costs that may be passed on to consumers. The agri-food sector will be hardest hit, given its reliance on complicated cross-border supply chains and the high tariff and non-tariff barriers to trade.

Disruption to key sectors and job losses are likely to result in protests and direct action with road blockades. Price and other differentials are likely to lead to the growth of the illegitimate economy. This will be particularly severe in border communities where criminal and dissident groups already operate with greater freedom. Given the tariff and non-tariff barriers to trade, there will be pressure to agree new arrangements to supersede the Day 1 model within days or weeks.

Energy supplies
Demand for energy will be met, and there will be no disruption to electricity or gas interconnectors. In Northern Ireland there will not be immediate disruption to electricity supply on Day 1. A rapid split of SEM could occur months or years after the EU Exit. In this event there would not be issues about security of supply. However, there will probably be marked price rises for electricity customers (business and domestic), with associated wider economic and political effects. Some participants could exit the market, exacerbating economic and political effects.

Gibraltar
Because of the imposition of checks at its border with Spain (and the knock-on effect of delays from the UK to the EU), Gibraltar will see disruption to the supply of goods (including food and medicines) and to shipments of waste, plus delays of four-plus hours for at least a few months in the movement of frontier workers, residents and tourists across the border.

Prolonged border delays over the longer term are likely to harm Gibraltar’s economy. As on the UK mainland, cross-border services and data flow will be disrupted. Despite the time extension to the UK’s exit from the EU, Gibraltar has still not taken the decisions to invest in contingency infrastructure (such as port adjustments and waste management equipment) and there are still concerns that Gibraltar will not have passed all necessary legislation for no-deal, opening up legal risks mainly for the government of Gibraltar. Gibraltar continues to plan for less significant border delays than in our Yellowhammer scenario. Crown dependencies may be affected by supply chain disruption.

Brits in Europe
i) UK nationals will lose their EU citizenship and can expect to lose associated rights and access to services over time, or be required to access them on a different basis. All member states have now published legislative proposals, but not all have passed legislation to secure all rights for UK nationals.

There is a mixed picture across member states in terms of the level of generosity and detail in the legislation. In some member states, UK nationals need to take action now. Complex administrative procedures within member states, language barriers and uncertainty regarding the UK political situation are contributing to some UK nationals being slow to take action. Demands for help on Her Majesty’s government will increase significantly, including an increase in consular inquiries and more complex and time-consuming consular assistance cases for vulnerable UK nationals.

Cross-government support, including continued close engagement and clear communications from UK government departments and the departmental agencies, will be needed to help manage the demand.

ii) An EU member state would continue to pay a pension it currently pays to a UK national living in the EU.

iii) The commission and individual member states do not agree to extend the current healthcare arrangements for UK state pensioners and tourists beyond October 31, 2019, and refuse offers by the UK to fund treatments. Member states take no further action to guarantee healthcare for UK nationals and treat them in the same way as the other “third country” nationals. UK pensioners, workers, travellers and students will need to access healthcare in different ways, depending on the country. Healthcare systems may require people to demonstrate residency and current or previous employment, to enter a social insurance scheme or to purchase private insurance. Member states should treat people with urgent needs but may require them to pay after the fact. There is a risk of disruption for patients, and a minority could face substantial costs.

Protests and police
Protests and counter-protests will take place across the UK, using up police resources. There may also be a rise in public disorder and community tensions.

Fishing
Up to 282 EU and European Economic Area nations’ fishing vessels could enter illegally or are already fishing in UK waters: up to 129 vessels in English waters, 100 in Scottish waters, 40 in Welsh waters and 13 in Northern Irish waters on Day 1. This is likely to cause anger and frustration in the UK catching sector, which could lead to clashes between fishing vessels and an increase in non-compliance in the domestic fleet.

Competing demands on UK government and maritime departmental agencies and their assets could put enforcement and response capabilities at risk, especially in the event of illegal fishing, border violations (smuggling and illegal migration) and any disorder or criminality arising as a result, eg violent disputes or blockading of ports.

The poor
Low-income groups will be disproportionately affected by rises in the price of food and fuel.

Social care
There is an assumption that there will be no big changes in adult social care on the day after EU Exit. The adult social care market is already fragile because of the declining financial viability of providers.

An increase in inflation after the UK’s EU exit would affect providers of adult social care through increasing staff and supply costs, and might lead to failure within 2-3 months for smaller providers and 4-6 months for larger ones. There are also local risks — transport or staff disruption, severe winter weather or flu — that could exacerbate existing market fragility and that cumulatively could stretch the resources of providers and local authorities.

Intelligence will continue to be gathered to prepare for any effects on the sector, including closure of services and handing-back of contracts that are not part of the normal market function. In addition, by mid-August we will look at the status of preparations in four local authorities identified as concerns.
"The answer is that no-one here believes the parents were directly involved in MM's disappearance" - G-Unit.

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1972 on: August 18, 2019, 07:39:45 AM »
All the above is thoroughly preventable but must be carried out because it is allegedly the will of the people.  What idiocy.
"The answer is that no-one here believes the parents were directly involved in MM's disappearance" - G-Unit.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1973 on: August 18, 2019, 09:08:24 AM »
No, May wasn’t “do or die”, but frankly I think dying is not really a sensible option, despite Boris’ promise.  Boris plans to call an election close to D-Day and therefore parliament will be in a state of suspension on 31st October so that the parliamentary process can be by-passed,  How jolly democratic.

Ironic, isn't it. MP's have prevented the result of a democratic vote being delivered. It would be amusing if they complained about a lack of democracy imo.

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Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1974 on: August 18, 2019, 05:23:20 PM »
Ironic, isn't it. MP's have prevented the result of a democratic vote being delivered. It would be amusing if they complained about a lack of democracy imo.
In the same way that those who bleat about democracy being thwarted will be very delighted to see democracy being thwarted in October.
"The answer is that no-one here believes the parents were directly involved in MM's disappearance" - G-Unit.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1975 on: August 18, 2019, 06:04:50 PM »
In the same way that those who bleat about democracy being thwarted will be very delighted to see democracy being thwarted in October.

I'm not convinced that following laid-down parliamentary procedures amounts to thwarting democracy.
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Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1976 on: August 18, 2019, 06:26:28 PM »
I'm not convinced that following laid-down parliamentary procedures amounts to thwarting democracy.
You think bulldozing through a no deal Brexit by suspending parliament is democratic?  OK.
"The answer is that no-one here believes the parents were directly involved in MM's disappearance" - G-Unit.

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1977 on: August 18, 2019, 06:41:29 PM »
“Boris Johnson’s No Deal obsession is actually ignoring 91.2% of referendum voters.

A 2016 poll of 1594 British adults discovered that a limited free trade deal with the European Union without any financial contribution or freedom of movement was people's preferred choice for Brexit.

While much of the talk from Brexiteers has been about respecting the will of the people and ensuring democracy is the real winner, it seems that the Prime Minister’s preferred option would please just 8.8% of the public, those that wanted to leave the European Union without a deal”.
"The answer is that no-one here believes the parents were directly involved in MM's disappearance" - G-Unit.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1978 on: August 18, 2019, 07:59:59 PM »
You think bulldozing through a no deal Brexit by suspending parliament is democratic?  OK.

If a vote of no confidence is carried a general election normally follows. That's procedure, nothing to do with democracy imo.
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Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1979 on: August 18, 2019, 08:02:28 PM »
If a vote of no confidence is carried a general election normally follows. That's procedure, nothing to do with democracy imo.
Is that the law?
"The answer is that no-one here believes the parents were directly involved in MM's disappearance" - G-Unit.