Possible movements during night of Family on 6/7th August in WHF ??

[Myster]

None of the eight small firearms in the above tests have a deflector plate like the Anschutz 525 rifle which forces the spent shell casings forward and to the right without fail. Which is why most of those ejected in the master bedroom when the assailant was stood around the foot of the bed firing at Nevill and June while they were in bed ended up on the floor between June's side of the bed and a cupboard.

Time to wheel out one of my favourite videos... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgz0lqGVouo

[Holly Goodhead]

None of the eight small firearms in the above tests have a deflector plate like the Anschutz 525 rifle which forces the spent shell casings forward and to the right without fail. Which is why most of those ejected in the master bedroom when the assailant was stood around the foot of the bed firing at Nevill and June while they were in bed ended up on the floor between June's side of the bed and a cupboard.

Time to wheel out one of my favourite videos... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgz0lqGVouo

You stole my thunder:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5594.msg290989#msg290989

[Myster]

You stole my thunder:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5594.msg290989#msg290989

    Ah well... I owed you one!

[Holly Goodhead]

Holly, I found this article on the position casings can fall.

http://www.forcescience.org/articles/ShellCasingStudy.pdf
During testimony, “experts” often cite that spent cartridge case ejection locations
from a semi-automatic firearm indicate the location of the shooter based on the
assumption that most spent cartridge cases land to the right and rear of the
shooter. The authors of this study investigated whether spent cartridge case
ejection locations are an accurate indicator of a shooter’s location. Eight different
semi-automatic weapons most frequently used by police officers were used to
collect data from eleven different shooting positions. The results highlighted the
significant inconsistency of the spent cartridge case ejection locations that
occurred across test positions even when several factors including firearm type,
firearm position, and ammunition were accounted for. Of 7,670 bullets fired, over
25 percent of the spent cartridge casings landed somewhere other than to the right
and rear of the shooter where it is commonly accepted they should land. That
pattern inconsistency is significant and demonstrates that determining shooter
location from the spent cartridge case alone leads to only a tentative estimate of
the shooter’s location.

I don't believe it's an exact science where some sort of gradient can be used as too many variables exist: objects that can impede flight, police officers accidentally kicking, Crispy nudging etc.  However as Myster has pointed out the rifle in question has a deflector plate which appears to throw the casing up and forward along a certain path:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5594.msg290989#msg290989

The investigation you have quoted shows about 25% of casings deviate from the expected path.  As NB was shot 4 times upstairs I guess we would expect 1 in 4 to go awry.  However as pointed out the deflector plate might minimise any deviations.

I'm sticking with my theory I worked out a while back but happy for you to pull it apart 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6883.msg293857#msg293857

[Opal]

  Holly I don't want to pull your theories apart, ( that's what I'm doing here, waiting for everyone to disagree with me!)  in actual fact I'd copied your diagram earlier to refer to. I think we both agree the Neville wasn't shot in bed? I'm convinced he got out of bed after hearing/ or being told/ about a noise....could have been 'Crispy' barking. As Neville was shot on his left side, I thought perhaps the bullet and casings by the chair near the window fell from the shots to his left side, Now Myster says that's not possible, I wonder if some of the casings found by Junes side of the bed were from the shots to Neville... Would that be possible?

I realise you and Myster have studied this for much longer than I have, so excuse my ignorance on some points.

[Holly Goodhead]

Holly I don't want to pull your theories apart, ( that's what I'm doing here, waiting for everyone to disagree with me!)  in actual fact I'd copied your diagram earlier to refer to. I think we both agree the Neville wasn't shot in bed? I'm convinced he got out of bed after hearing/ or being told/ about a noise....could have been 'Crispy' barking. As Neville was shot on his left side, I thought perhaps the bullet and casings by the chair near the window fell from the shots to his left side, Now Myster says that's not possible, I wonder if some of the casings found by Junes side of the bed were from the shots to Neville... Would that be possible?

I realise you and Myster have studied this for much longer than I have, so excuse my ignorance on some points.

Having theories pulled apart is the way to go    It separates the wheat from the chaff    Scipio was most brutal about it which I quite enjoyed.  A sort of S&M I guess  *&*%£

My theory isn't without its flaws.  The main flaw is that it is believed the shot June sustained between the eyes was fired where she was found.  Due to the trajectory this puts the shooter and rifle facing the entrance which means the casing would eject around the entrance and I've allocated all these casings to NB.  However my theory is the only one I can see that accounts for the trajectories and tracts of the shots NB sustained. 

There's also the question of two casings marked up DRH/7 but I think something a bit dodgy went on here:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6883.msg295218#msg295218

Four factors need to be taken into account:

- Blood
- Casings
- Trajectories of shots
- Tracts of shots

You're a fast learner Opal and belong here on the UK Justice forum      One only has to look at Blue or the CT to realise this. 

Had ballistics, a biologist and pathologist have been called to soc on morning of 7th Aug before anything or anyone was touched or moved then I'm pretty certain we wouldn't be discussing the case now.  These are by far the most important aspects of the case not all the nonsense about bikes and lie detector tests.
 

[Opal]

Having theories pulled apart is the way to go    It separates the wheat from the chaff    Scipio was most brutal about it which I quite enjoyed.  A sort of S&M I guess  *&*%£     

My theory isn't without its flaws.  The main flaw is that it is believed the shot June sustained between the eyes was fired where she was found.  Due to the trajectory this puts the shooter and rifle facing the entrance which means the casing would eject around the entrance and I've allocated all these casings to NB.  However my theory is the only one I can see that accounts for the trajectories and tracts of the shots NB sustained. 

There's also the question of two casings marked up DRH/7 but I think something a bit dodgy went on here:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6883.msg295218#msg295218

Four factors need to be taken into account:

- Blood
- Casings
- Trajectories of shots
- Tracts of shots

You're a fast learner Opal and belong here on the UK Justice forum     

Thanks for that Holly,  I'll have a good read up on your's and Scripio ideas, only had a browse at the mo... I see what you mean about S&M...  

One thing that's got me wondering is the casing on the right of SC... how could the casing end up here ( close to the door) if SC had the rifle facing her when she shot herself if the casing falls from the rifle to the right and slightly forward?  &%+((£

[Myster]

That's a no-brainer... the casing bounced off the side of the bed and/or the bedside cabinet. It might even have landed on top of Sheila and JB brushed it off when placing the rifle on top of her to simulate suicide.

[Opal]

So therefore JB was standing to the right  of SC's right foot as she is shown lying on the floor?

[Myster]

So therefore JB was standing to the right  of SC's right foot as she is shown lying on the floor?

To the right yes, although not standing but crouching or kneeling and holding the rifle's length close to her body to deliver the fatal second shot. In other words it was low enough for the ejected shell to hit the side of the bed/bedside cabinet and be deflected across her body. The second shot went directly up without deflection through the roof of her mouth into the brain, so the rifle must have been aligned almost parallel to her body when it was fired.

[Holly Goodhead]

Thanks for that Holly,  I'll have a good read up on your's and Scripio ideas, only had a browse at the mo... I see what you mean about S&M...  

One thing that's got me wondering is the casing on the right of SC... how could the casing end up here ( close to the door) if SC had the rifle facing her when she shot herself if the casing falls from the rifle to the right and slightly forward?  &%+((£

As per the link you posted the location of casings is only a best guesstimate:

http://www.forcescience.org/articles/ShellCasingStudy.pdf

I've read other articles which state factors such as angle of shot and pressure applied to trigger will alter the casings flight path. 

A firearm designed to shoot vermin in open spaces isn't designed for use in a confined space.  Any object might have caused the casing to ricochet such as bedside cabinet.   

Experts/scientists are used to couching probabilities in terms of "unlikely" and "remote possibility" etc.  Eg:

Malcolm Fletcher (Ballistics) = 63. The bullet wound between the eyes was fired from less than one foot away, and could have been with the gun in contact with the skin, although he viewed that as unlikely.

John Hayward (Biologist) = 454. Mr Hayward then said that you could get different reactions if there was more than one person's blood present and he said that it was "a remote possibility" that the blood that he had tested was a mixture of blood from Mr and Mrs Bamber.

Now for Dr Vanezis:

Dr Vanezis (Pathologist) = 46. From the pathological evidence alone, the pathologist could not say, one way or the other, whether Mrs Caffell had been murdered or had taken her own life.

If he was able to say it was likely or unlikely SC took her own life he would say as much.  He doesn't as he is unable to say one way or the other.  But of course folk all over the place know SC did or didn't take her own life  %&5%£

JB was severely disadvantaged at trial by the fact gun related crime in the UK is low.  Therefore homegrown expertise is low.  There's no evidence any of the experts at trial attended training courses or secondments in USA where crimes involving firearms are significantly higher than UK due to gun ownership laws.  Whether a pathologist with greater firearms experience could shed new light on the nature of SC's wounds I have no idea. 

The above quotes are all sourced from the following:

http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html 

[Holly Goodhead]

To illustrate the point about the experts above lacking firearms experience:

Firearms - related death rate per 100,000 population per year:

UK = 0.23 (2011)

USA = 10.54 (2014)

As an aside the case of New Zealander, David Bains, which has some similarities with JB's case shows the figure for New Zealand as 1.07 (mixed years).  Does anyone know if any controversial cases exist in USA where the case hinges on murder or suicide?  I suspect not as the expertise is such it will be conclusively determined.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

[John]

I believe that NB heard a noise that night, probably the dogs barking, ( pest dog) 

When outside WHF JB told police that he couldn’t understand why his father hadn’t come out as when the dogs barked his father used to come out with his gun looking for foxes.


June B awoke hearing dogs bark and /or noise (JB was a light sleeper) she woke NB who got out of bed and stooped to look through window, he was shot 4 times, on his left profile, killer by this time standing at main bedroom doorway.( casings fall on right  of doorway by wardrobe)

As killer turns to shoot terrified June B. NB escapes though main bedroom door to get gun in downstairs office, smearing blood on left side of hallway walls. At the same time SC wakes and makes her way out of her bedroom, sees killer following her father downstairs, and mother staggering from bed.  Terrified, SC makes her way to her children’s bedroom to check on them, SC stays with twins she hides/ collapses in twins bedroom. After killing NB in kitchen, JB reloads rifle and returns upstairs to kill terrified SC. JB makes SC walk through the box room from the twins room to main bedroom at gun point, ( no blood spilt this way) makes her lay by bottom of bed (NB side of bed) shoots her once from doorway then shoots June B 2 more times, as Sheila not dead she is turned over, and placed face up then shot again at close range. The livor mortis on SC’s left arm proves her left arm was not touching the ground until she was turned over. 

The way I see it, Nevill approached the shooter who was stood in the bedroom doorway, he was shot at close range and probably fell.  June was next, shot as she cowered in bed.

[Opal]

 I agree John, I did think NB could have been hit as he faced the window looking for a noise outside but Holly and Myster said they were of the understanding  that the casings fall slightly in front and to the right, so Neville must of been hit as he made his way to JB who was in the doorway.

[Opal]

To the right yes, although not standing but crouching or kneeling and holding the rifle's length close to her body to deliver the fatal second shot. In other words it was low enough for the ejected shell to hit the side of the bed/bedside cabinet and be deflected across her body. The second shot went directly up without deflection through the roof of her mouth into the brain, so the rifle must have been aligned almost parallel to her body when it was fired.

I'm undecided regarding the casings found beside  SC. Myster, The reason being...  I think SC was moved to the position she was found after being shot. At some point she was on her right side for the blood to run down onto the right side of her nightdress. SC's forearm had blood on it where her right arm lay on her nightdress whilst she was on her side. The blood running down the left side of her mouth could have happened when she was moved.