Possible movements during night of Family on 6/7th August in WHF ??

[Opal]

I believe that NB heard a noise that night, probably the dogs barking, ( pest dog) 

When outside WHF JB told police that he couldn’t understand why his father hadn’t come out as when the dogs barked his father used to come out with his gun looking for foxes.


June B awoke hearing dogs bark and /or noise (JB was a light sleeper) she woke NB who got out of bed and stooped to look through window, he was shot 4 times, on his left profile, killer by this time standing at main bedroom doorway.( casings fall on right  of doorway by wardrobe)

As killer turns to shoot terrified June B. NB escapes though main bedroom door to get gun in downstairs office, smearing blood on left side of hallway walls. At the same time SC wakes and makes her way out of her bedroom, sees killer following her father downstairs, and mother staggering from bed.  Terrified, SC makes her way to her children’s bedroom to check on them, SC stays with twins she hides/ collapses in twins bedroom. After killing NB in kitchen, JB reloads rifle and returns upstairs to kill terrified SC. JB makes SC walk through the box room from the twins room to main bedroom at gun point, ( no blood spilt this way) makes her lay by bottom of bed (NB side of bed) shoots her once from doorway then shoots June B 2 more times, as Sheila not dead she is turned over, and placed face up then shot again at close range. The livor mortis on SC’s left arm proves her left arm was not touching the ground until she was turned over. 

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[Angelo222]

How did Nevill get past the shooter as he was stood in the bedroom doorway shooting.  For what its worth my own theory is that Sheila was either locked in her room or disabled in some way so that she couldn't interfere with what was going on and end up dishevelled and hysterical.  David Boutflour touched on this when he made his "hardly a hair out of place" comment in one of his documentary appearances. If Sheila had been conscious and aware of what was going on she would have been extremely difficult to handle and so setting up a fake suicide would have been high impossible.

I do agree though that Sheila's first concern would have been for the twins so whatever happened she thought they were safe.

Shooting two young boys as they slept must be one of the most obnoxious and callous crimes ever to have been perpetrated in this country.  It takes a very special type of deviant to do such a thing.

[adam]

How did Nevill get past the shooter as he was stood in the bedroom doorway shooting.  For what its worth my own theory is that Sheila was either locked in her room or disabled in some way so that she couldn't interfere with what was going on and end up dishevelled and hysterical.  David Boutflour touched on this when he made his "hardly a hair out of place" comment in one of his documentary appearances. If Sheila had been conscious and aware of what was going on she would have been extremely difficult to handle and so setting up a fake suicide would have been high impossible.

I do agree though that Sheila's first concern would have been for the twins so whatever happened she thought they were safe.

Shooting two young boys as they slept must be one of the most obnoxious and callous crimes ever to have been perpetrated in this country.  It takes a very special type of deviant to do such a thing.

All the shots in the massacre were contact or from close range.

Why would Bamber shoot Neville and June from the doorway ? They were sleeping and he could go up close.

This is what happened with June. Contact shots as she slept. Neville was next but started getting out of bed as Bamber started shooting. Bamber retreated slightly as Neville was a big man,  but carried on shooting and hitting Neville. But not killing him.

Bamber retreating gave Neville the chance to escape. Pursued by Bamber.

[Opal]

All the shots in the massacre were contact or from close range.

Why would Bamber shoot Neville and June from the doorway ? They were sleeping and he could go up close.

This is what happened with June. Contact shots as she slept. Neville was next but started getting out of bed as Bamber started shooting. Bamber retreated slightly as Neville was a big man,  but carried on shooting and hitting Neville. But not killing him.

Bamber retreating gave Neville the chance to escape. Pursued by Bamber.

Thanks for your comments, Neville was shot on his left side, no blood on his side of bed, once Neville saw the killer ( whilst stooped and looking out of window) he would have moved towards him to disarm him.

Was June asleep though? She could have been sitting up after waking Neville, she was then shot, she fell back on pillow. June had shots to her legs that could have been received at this time. I believe I'm right in saying the first shots were on her right side?  If so, she could have been getting out of bed before being shot. Just my theory....

[Holly Goodhead]

I believe that NB heard a noise that night, probably the dogs barking, ( pest dog) 

When outside WHF JB told police that he couldn’t understand why his father hadn’t come out as when the dogs barked his father used to come out with his gun looking for foxes.


June B awoke hearing dogs bark and /or noise (JB was a light sleeper) she woke NB who got out of bed and stooped to look through window, he was shot 4 times, on his left profile, killer by this time standing at main bedroom doorway.( casings fall on right  of doorway by wardrobe)

As killer turns to shoot terrified June B. NB escapes though main bedroom door to get gun in downstairs office, smearing blood on left side of hallway walls. At the same time SC wakes and makes her way out of her bedroom, sees killer following her father downstairs, and mother staggering from bed.  Terrified, SC makes her way to her children’s bedroom to check on them, SC stays with twins she hides/ collapses in twins bedroom. After killing NB in kitchen, JB reloads rifle and returns upstairs to kill terrified SC. JB makes SC walk through the box room from the twins room to main bedroom at gun point, ( no blood spilt this way) makes her lay by bottom of bed (NB side of bed) shoots her once from doorway then shoots June B 2 more times, as Sheila not dead she is turned over, and placed face up then shot again at close range. The livor mortis on SC’s left arm proves her left arm was not touching the ground until she was turned over.

According to Malcolm Fletcher the shots NB sustained to his face were fired at a distance of a few inches.  I don't see how this is compatible with your theory that NB was shot by the window at the foot of the bed?  The casings eject forward and to the right therefore they would fall around the foot of the bed not by the wardrobe?

[Holly Goodhead]

All the shots in the massacre were contact or from close range.

Why would Bamber shoot Neville and June from the doorway ? They were sleeping and he could go up close.

This is what happened with June. Contact shots as she slept. Neville was next but started getting out of bed as Bamber started shooting. Bamber retreated slightly as Neville was a big man,  but carried on shooting and hitting Neville. But not killing him.

Bamber retreating gave Neville the chance to escape. Pursued by Bamber.

According to Malcolm Fletcher and Dr Vanezis the two shots SC sustained were "loose contact".  It is thought one of the head shots NC sustained was contact and the shot June sustained between the eyes might have been contact but MF thought this "unlikely".  Where's your source for all the contact shots you claim in your post above?

[Holly Goodhead]

Had procedures been followed ballistics, a biologist and pathologist would have been called to SoC. Had this happened it's unlikely we would be discussing the case now.  There's no substitute for experts at SoC which in their absence leave voids which others are happy to fill. 

[adam]

According to Malcolm Fletcher and Dr Vanezis the two shots SC sustained were "loose contact".  It is thought one of the head shots NC sustained was contact and the shot June sustained between the eyes might have been contact but MF thought this "unlikely".  Where's your source for all the contact shots you claim in your post above?

My post says all shots were contact or close range.

[adam]

How did Nevill get past the shooter as he was stood in the bedroom doorway shooting.  For what its worth my own theory is that Sheila was either locked in her room or disabled in some way so that she couldn't interfere with what was going on and end up dishevelled and hysterical.  David Boutflour touched on this when he made his "hardly a hair out of place" comment in one of his documentary appearances. If Sheila had been conscious and aware of what was going on she would have been extremely difficult to handle and so setting up a fake suicide would have been high impossible.

I do agree though that Sheila's first concern would have been for the twins so whatever happened she thought they were safe.

Shooting two young boys as they slept must be one of the most obnoxious and callous crimes ever to have been perpetrated in this country.  It takes a very special type of deviant to do such a thing.

I agree Sheila would have been difficult if she knew what was going on.

I doubt she had a clue what was happening. There was no reason she would wake. Bamber then just had to get a few yards, the only dead body she would have passed was June's. Even then it may have been dark.

[John]

I agree Sheila would have been difficult if she knew what was going on.

I doubt she had a clue what was happening. There was no reason she would wake. Bamber then just had to get a few yards, the only dead body she would have passed was June's. Even then it may have been dark.

I find that particular aspect bizarre, it was as if she was totally compliant or unconscious and unaware as to what was going on.  There were no signs of tears or trauma on her face which leads one to the conclusion she might have been rendered unconscious before the shots and carried into the master bedroom where the killer enacted his suicide plan.

Had Sheila shot herself there would have been a distinct thumb print on the rifle trigger and  fingerprints on the empty casings.

[Holly Goodhead]

My post says all shots were contact or close range.

Your posts says "This is what happened with June.  Contact shots as she slept".  This is at odds with Malcolm Fletcher:

63. Of the seven injuries suffered by June Bamber, five were shots from the gun held at least one foot away from the body. The bullet wound between the eyes was fired from less than one foot away, and could have been with the gun in contact with the skin, although he viewed that as unlikely. Mr Fletcher was unable to estimate the range of the shot which had caused the injury to the right side of Mrs Bamber's chest.

http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html

[Holly Goodhead]

I find that particular aspect bizarre, it was as if she was totally compliant or unconscious and unaware as to what was going on.  There were no signs of tears or trauma on her face which leads one to the conclusion she might have been rendered unconscious before the shots and carried into the master bedroom where the killer enacted his suicide plan.

Had Sheila shot herself there would have been a distinct thumb print on the rifle trigger and  fingerprints on the empty casings.

I have communicated via email with one of the world's leading experts on fingerprints.  He has advised that fingerprints are difficult to recover from firearms due to the coating known as bluing.  Myster has seen a copy of the email which I am happy to share with you John providing it is kept confidential.   

With regard to the casings.  I believe they were tested although I haven't seen any firm evidence of this or any outcome.  I believe fingerprints were difficult to recover from casings due in part to their shape hence CERA LT was developed.  Had EP not destroyed the casings in 1996 it would have been possible to examine the casings in light of this new technology which may have shed new light on the case.

http://www.consoliteforensics.com/

I believe the silencer was also examined for fingerprints and none were found despite the relatives handling of it.  I assume this was also coated and explains the lack of fingerprints.

Puglove did mention the wooden butt which I intend to raise with the expert.  I've no idea if this area is treated/coated.

[adam]

I find that particular aspect bizarre, it was as if she was totally compliant or unconscious and unaware as to what was going on.  There were no signs of tears or trauma on her face which leads one to the conclusion she might have been rendered unconscious before the shots and carried into the master bedroom where the killer enacted his suicide plan.

Had Sheila shot herself there would have been a distinct thumb print on the rifle trigger and  fingerprints on the empty casings.

Bamber didn't knock her out. There were no marks on her.

Could he have slipped something into her drink at the last supper that would make her even more drowsy. That would not show in an autopsy report ?

I could easily spend 10 seconds lifting Sheila a few yards. She may start to wake. She may not. One thing is for sure, she would not have a clue what was about to happen.

[adam]

In the films people often put a hankerchief over someones mouth. The person then instantly passes out.

Hannibal Lector did it to an alive male in 'Hannibal'.

Bamber could have done something like that while Sheila was sleeping.  Providing it left no trace.

[Opal]

According to Malcolm Fletcher the shots NB sustained to his face were fired at a distance of a few inches.  I don't see how this is compatible with your theory that NB was shot by the window at the foot of the bed?  The casings eject forward and to the right therefore they would fall around the foot of the bed not by the wardrobe?

Holly, I found this article on the position casings can fall.

http://www.forcescience.org/articles/ShellCasingStudy.pdf
During testimony, “experts” often cite that spent cartridge case ejection locations
from a semi-automatic firearm indicate the location of the shooter based on the
assumption that most spent cartridge cases land to the right and rear of the
shooter. The authors of this study investigated whether spent cartridge case
ejection locations are an accurate indicator of a shooter’s location. Eight different
semi-automatic weapons most frequently used by police officers were used to
collect data from eleven different shooting positions. The results highlighted the
significant inconsistency of the spent cartridge case ejection locations that
occurred across test positions even when several factors including firearm type,
firearm position, and ammunition were accounted for. Of 7,670 bullets fired, over
25 percent of the spent cartridge casings landed somewhere other than to the right
and rear of the shooter where it is commonly accepted they should land. That
pattern inconsistency is significant and demonstrates that determining shooter
location from the spent cartridge case alone leads to only a tentative estimate of
the shooter’s location.