Possible movements during night of Family on 6/7th August in WHF ??

[Holly Goodhead]

If NB sustained the GSW's to his lip and jaw around the entrance to the main bedroom with JB on the stairs or on the landing, or even just inside the bedroom door, I can't see how this can explain the trajectories which were 20 degrees below the horizontal.  NB was 6'4" and JB 6'0".

[Myster]

If NB sustained the GSW's to his lip and jaw around the entrance to the main bedroom with JB on the stairs or on the landing, or even just inside the bedroom door, I can't see how this can explain the trajectories which were 20 degrees below the horizontal.  NB was 6'4" and JB 6'0".

NB was lying prone in bed in the process of getting up when shot in mouth and jaw and therefore below his son standing at the foot of the bed, which obviously explains the downward trajectory... and also the location of the spent casings. It ain't rocket science!

[adam]

NB was lying prone in bed in the process of getting up when shot in mouth and jaw and therefore below his son standing at the foot of the bed, which obviously explains the downward trajectory... and also the location of the spent casings. It ain't rocket science!

That sounds about right.

[Holly Goodhead]

NB was lying prone in bed in the process of getting up when shot in mouth and jaw and therefore below his son standing at the foot of the bed, which obviously explains the downward trajectory... and also the location of the spent casings. It ain't rocket science!

If NB was lying in bed with JB standing at the foot of the bed the trajectory would be greater than 20 degrees below the horizontal.  The casings would fall at the foot of the bed or on the bottom of the bed around the middle and there aren't any in those locations.  None of NB's blood was found anywhere in the bedroom either. 

[Myster]

If NB was lying in bed with JB standing at the foot of the bed the trajectory would be greater than 20 degrees below the horizontal.  The casings would fall at the foot of the bed or on the bottom of the bed around the middle and there aren't any in those locations.  None of NB's blood was found anywhere in the bedroom either.

The angle depends on how the rifle was held and aimed - abutted against the shoulder, under the armpit or at waist level.

Why would the casings fall at the foot of the bed?  Not according to the video which I've posted umpteen times of them travelling up and forward to the right at speed. Even if one or two fell on June's side of the bed or onto June herself, these could have rolled off onto the floor as she was getting up.

It also appears that no spots of NB's blood were found on the stairs or lower landing where you believe he was shot.

[Holly Goodhead]

The angle depends on how the rifle was held and aimed - abutted against the shoulder, under the armpit or at waist level.

Why would the casings fall at the foot of the bed?  Not according to the video which I've posted umpteen times of them travelling up and forward to the right at speed. Even if one or two fell on June's side of the bed or onto June herself, these could have rolled off onto the floor as she was getting up.

It also appears that no spots of NB's blood were found on the stairs or lower landing where you believe he was shot.

I think it would depend if the perp was standing with his/her back near the window or close to the foot of the bed.  From your vid it seems to me the casings would most likely end up on the bottom end of the bed in the middle.  When June left the bed she would move the covers from left to right so I'm not sure how any casings that may have been on the bed would end up on the floor her side?  In any event the casings June's side account for her GSW's only?

Two spots of blood were found on the landing carpet.  Both tested but inconclusive in that the ABO groupings contradicted the victims' AK groupings so it wasn't possible to say whose blood.  According to AE's WS the police apologised for not removing all the blood on the stairs although she says she couldn't see any.  It doesn't appear this blood was tested but it seems likely it belonged to NB.  There's no evidence June or SC left the main bedroom having sustained all their GSW's there.  I think all concerned agree the twins did not leave their beds.

Blood stains on landing carpet

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=221

Blood stains on stairs carpet

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=3100

[Holly Goodhead]

NB was lying prone in bed in the process of getting up when shot in mouth and jaw and therefore below his son standing at the foot of the bed, which obviously explains the downward trajectory... and also the location of the spent casings. It ain't rocket science!

Just remembered if JB was stood at the foot of the bed with NB lying prone in bed the distance would equate to a few feet and the facial shots were said to have been fired within a few inches of his skin:

64. In respect of the eight shots into Nevill Bamber's body, the six to his head and face were fired when the rifle was within a few inches of the skin.

[Myster]

Just remembered if JB was stood at the foot of the bed with NB lying prone in bed the distance would equate to a few feet and the facial shots were said to have been fired within a few inches of his skin:

64. In respect of the eight shots into Nevill Bamber's body, the six to his head and face were fired when the rifle was within a few inches of the skin.

You forget how long the rifle was, even longer if you believe a moderator was fitted. And if most of it was held over the bed, even more likely that the ejected shells would land on the carpet between right bedside and wall cupboard.

Nevill couldn't have been shot in the face while on the stairs or lower landing by Sheila (or Jeremy) standing on the upper landing. The casings would have finished up on the steps of the main stretch of the Hall stairs, and not where the two found are shown on plan.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Holly Goodhead]

You forget how long the rifle was, even longer if you believe a moderator was fitted. And if most of it was held over the bed, even more likely that the ejected shells would land on the carpet between right bedside and wall cupboard.

Nevill couldn't have been shot in the face while on the stairs or lower landing by Sheila (or Jeremy) standing on the upper landing. The casings would have finished up on the steps of the main stretch of the Hall stairs, and not where the two found are shown on plan.

I've never known the length of the rifle with or without silencer.   I did attempt to find out online and looked at the parts diagram you posted but to no avail.

If NB was lying prone with JB at foot of bed wielding the rifle over the bed so that the end of barrel/silencer was within a few inches of his skin, I fail to see  how NB left the bed let alone the bedroom.  Especially given the rifle was a semi-auto. 
 
You've just reminded me how long the rifle is with or without the silencer.  If SC was stood just inside the entrance with the ejection port also inside the bedroom and the barrel extending out onto the landing, angled at 20 degrees below the horizontal and pointing at NB's face whilst he was stood on the stairs immediately preceding the entrance, I think it's entirely feasible he sustained the lip and jaw shots in that location.  The casings, as we know thanks to your vid, eject forward and to the right so this could account for DRH/3 and DRH/4. 

I can picture in my mind's eye this scenario best by looking at the following photo.

As far as I can see it's the only scenario that fits with:

- Trajectories - 20 degrees below the horizontal as per Dr Vanezis' autopsy
- Wound tracts - lip and jaw face on as per Dr Vanezis' autopsy
- Blood staining on carpet - as per DC Hammersley - SoC officer
- Casings - as per diagram
- Distance of shots - a few inches from skin as estimated by Malcolm Fletcher/scientific officer for ballistics

[Myster]

I've never known the length of the rifle with or without silencer.   I did attempt to find out online and looked at the parts diagram you posted but to no avail.

If NB was lying prone with JB at foot of bed wielding the rifle over the bed so that the end of barrel/silencer was within a few inches of his skin, I fail to see  how NB left the bed let alone the bedroom.  Especially given the rifle was a semi-auto. 
 
You've just reminded me how long the rifle is with or without the silencer.  If SC was stood just inside the entrance with the ejection port also inside the bedroom and the barrel extending out onto the landing, angled at 20 degrees below the horizontal and pointing at NB's face whilst he was stood on the stairs immediately preceding the entrance, I think it's entirely feasible he sustained the lip and jaw shots in that location.  The casings, as we know thanks to your vid, eject forward and to the right so this could account for DRH/3 and DRH/4. 

I can picture in my mind's eye this scenario best by looking at the following photo.

As far as I can see it's the only scenario that fits with:

- Trajectories - 20 degrees below the horizontal as per Dr Vanezis' autopsy
- Wound tracts - lip and jaw face on as per Dr Vanezis' autopsy
- Blood staining on carpet - as per DC Hammersley - SoC officer
- Casings - as per diagram
- Distance of shots - a few inches from skin as estimated by Malcolm Fletcher/scientific officer for ballistics

The standard Anschutz is about 43" long. If you've got a Stanley tape measure, extend and lock it at 43", plus another 7" if you think a moderator was fitted, hold it to your shoulder over a double bed at the foot end and see how close the rifle muzzle might have been to the head of someone in the act of getting up.

http://jga.anschuetz-sport.com/index.php5?produktID=313&menu=106&seite=51&sprache=1&produktShow=detail&dlfotos=1&PHPSESSID=77f29b217478cf5d82b7c0201cc4e627

You forgot about the other two wounds to Nevill's left shoulder and arm. Where did the ejected casings finish up if SC then had to move out of the doorway onto the landing to get those shots in as Nevill stumbled downstairs back to the kitchen?  They couldn't have been DRH 13 and 14, because the casings ejected up and forward to the right and must have flown over the banister rail onto the lower staircase treads.

In any event, Jeremy Bamber's whole phone call story is unbelievable. It's impossible to think that Nevill would allow his daughter to slip past him in the kitchen armed with a loaded rifle while he fumbled about dialling a six-figure number, then waited for his son to wake from a deep sleep (in his own words "like a log") before answering. Any father's first move would be to follow his daughter immediately and disarm her before she had the chance to fire off any shots.

https://soundcloud.com/user9618130/jeremy-bamber-fathers-alleged-phone-call

[Holly Goodhead]

The standard Anschutz is about 43" long. If you've got a Stanley tape measure, extend and lock it at 43", plus another 7" if you think a moderator was fitted, hold it to your shoulder over a double bed at the foot end and see how close the rifle muzzle might have been to the head of someone in the act of getting up.

http://jga.anschuetz-sport.com/index.php5?produktID=313&menu=106&seite=51&sprache=1&produktShow=detail&dlfotos=1&PHPSESSID=77f29b217478cf5d82b7c0201cc4e627

You forgot about the other two wounds to Nevill's left shoulder and arm. Where did the ejected casings finish up if SC then had to move out of the doorway onto the landing to get those shots in as Nevill stumbled downstairs back to the kitchen?  They couldn't have been DRH 13 and 14, because the casings ejected up and forward to the right and must have flown over the banister rail onto the lower staircase treads.

In any event, Jeremy Bamber's whole phone call story is unbelievable. It's impossible to think that Nevill would allow his daughter to slip past him in the kitchen armed with a loaded rifle while he fumbled about dialling a six-figure number, then waited for his son to wake from a deep sleep (in his own words "like a log") before answering. Any father's first move would be to follow his daughter immediately and disarm her before she had the chance to fire off any shots.

https://soundcloud.com/user9618130/jeremy-bamber-fathers-alleged-phone-call

43" is the same length as my drivers.  NB was 6'4" = 76".  In order for JB to shoot NB lying prone in bed within a few inches of his face, which is the distance estimated by MF, JB would need to hold the rifle away from his body and hang over the end of the bed.  The casings would end up around June's head or the back of the bed and none were found in these locations.  All the casings June's side of the bed pertain to her GSW's only.  None of NB's blood was found in the bedroom.  There's no evidence whatsoever NB was shot in the bedroom. 

I haven't forgotten the GSW's to the back of NB's shoulder and elbow.  As I've explained previously I believe after NB sustained the GSW's to his face, whilst stood at the bedroom door facing in, he then turned to go back down the stairs.  SC followed.  As they were on the stairs facing down NB sustained the shoulder and elbow shot.  The casings eject forward, up and right which accounts for DRH/13 and DRH/14.  If you look at the photo I uploaded above you will see how the handrail slopes and the spindles in the banisters.  I think it's entirely feasible the casings went over the handrail or through the spindles.  I can't see any other explanation for:

- Trajectories
- Wound tracts
- Distance
- Casings
- Blood

I've never placed that much emphasis on the phone calls as they are subject to the vagaries of human behaviour.  The fact you and others don't believe NB would make such a call doesn't make it so.  If it's so unbelievable why did Chief Sup Harris, who had commanded over 60 murder investigations, believe it?  And I certainly don't take any notice of anything JB says having been incarcerated for over 3 decades and surrounded by the likes of Mike and CT who fill his head with garbage. 

If you disagree with my scenario/theory above please provide your own which takes into account trajectories, wound tracts, distance (of shots), casings and blood.

[Myster]

Looks like your having a   party over at IA, so I'll let you get on arguing with al, and whatever he says I'll agree with him... providing he doesn't change his mind about JB's guilt.

[Holly Goodhead]

Looks like your having a   party over at IA, so I'll let you get on arguing with al, and whatever he says I'll agree with him... providing he doesn't change his mind about JB's guilt.

I think al has pretty much made his mind up on the tel calls alone 

[Myster]

I think al has pretty much made his mind up on the tel calls alone 

So have I.  You can't possibly believe that Nevill would allow Sheila out of his sight if she'd got hold of the rifle.

He'd say something along the lines of - "Where are you going to with that?"

"It's alright dad, I'm just off upstairs to take a few potshots at mum!"

"Oh no you're not, gal!" and he'd make to grab it off her straight away, before making any phone call.

JB has got his call to the Mirror reporter off pat.  Doesn't this excerpt sound very rehearsed to you?  - "I need more information - what, where, how, you know... what do you need me to do, how can I..." -

https://soundcloud.com/user9618130/jeremy-bamber-fathers-alleged-phone-call

[Myster]

I see you've got some drawing to do.  Why not use this online program...

http://drawisland.com/

I've just tried it by importing the shell casing plan using the Browse button under the workspace, then drawing a couple of ovals and a straight line to represent two figures and the shot direction.