Author Topic: Possible movements during night of Family on 6/7th August in WHF ??  (Read 31436 times)

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Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Possible movements during night of Family on 6/7th August in WHF ??
« Reply #60 on: August 13, 2016, 03:39:34 PM »
FROM CAL'S BOOK - RECONSTRUCTIONS BY POLICE, SENIOR SCIENTIFIC OFFICER FOR BALLISTICS, MALCOLM FLETCHER, PATHOLOGIST, DR PETER VANEZIS AND AUTHOR, CAROL ANN LEE.

Police

"The official police account of how Jeremy Bamber killed his family is contained in the report to the Director of Public Prosecutions in November 1985, written with a view to having him committed for trial. 

Acknowledging that the order of death could not be determined with certainty, the report contends that:

...there were probably ten shots fired in the first fusillade [four into Nevill, one into Sheila and five into June] and the remaining three - two into June's head, one into Sheila's head- were inflicted after Ralph Nevill was killed in the kitchen.  Eight shots were fired into the boys - eight cases were recovered in their bedroom.  Four shots were fired into Ralph Nevill in the kitchen - namely, the two in his temple area and the two in the top of his head.  Three cartridge cases were recovered in the kitchen.  It is therefore reasonable to assume that the fourth cartridge case was carried on the feet of the killer, or possibly a police officer, and deposited on the stairway.

Senior Scientific Officer - Malcolm Fletcher

Ballistics expert Malcolm Fletcher believes that Jeremy fired eight shots into his parents first, and that Nevill escaped to try and raise the alarm using the telephone downstairs, while Jeremy forced Sheila into the master bedroom, where he shot her once; after killing Nevill, her returned to fire the fatal shots at June, and another at Sheila before expending the remaining bullets on Nicholas and Daniel. 

Pathologist - Dr Peter Vanezis

However, pathologist Peter Vanezis is of the opinion that the twins may have been the first to die.

Author - Carol Ann Lee

Climbing the stairs, he steeled himself to kill the greatest threats first: his parents.  A thin film of moonlight glimmered through the curtains in the master bedroom, where his parents lay sleeping.  He stood in the doorway, lifted the rifle, and fired. 

The first two shots pierced the right side of June's chest, embedding themselves in the pillow.  Another shot hit her in the arm and a third travelled up inside her leg, lodging in her knee.  The terrible impact woke Nevill, who lurched out of bed.  Jeremy turned the gun on his father, firing four shots that caught him on his left side: two bullets penetrated his forearm and shoulder, and two tore into his lip and jaw. 

Jeremy left the room, heading down the first flight of stairs and through the corridor to the twins' bedroom, firing one shot into each slumbering child.  With all ten cartridges expended, he made his way down to the kitchen to reload.

He managed to slot four cartridges into the magazine before his father stumbled into the room.  A fierce fight for possession of the weapon ensued: they fell against the table, knocking it into the dresser and sending crockery to the floor.  The rifle struck the overhead lampshade, shattering it.  Jeremy used the gun to beat his father about the arms, head and face; Nevill's watch broke and skittered across the lino.  The struggle came to a brutal end near the Aga, where the rifle damaged the underside of the mantel.  As Nevill collapsed over a chair, landing at an impossible angle with his pyjamas tangling around his feet, Jeremy brought the gun down on his skull, then fired four shots into his head.

The last produced a stovepipe jam, trapping the empty cartridge case in the ejection port.  Jeremy removed the magazine and loaded it to its full capacity, then inserted it into the magazine well.  Climbing the stairs again, he cleared the jammed cartridge by working the bolt.  It fell out, rolling towards the skirting board on the first landing.

While father and son were fighting in the kitchen, June had managed to force herself up from bed.  The commotion had also woken Sheila, who crossed the landing to her parents' bedroom, drowsy and confused.  At the sight of her mother bleeding profusely as she steadied herself on the edge of the bed, Sheila rushed to the other side of the room, where the door to the box room was the quickest route to the twins.  June staggered round the bed after her, but before she could reach Sheila, Jeremy returned with the gun.

Sheila froze.  June started towards her son, who fired three more shots into her neck, head and finally between the eyes.  June hit her shoulder against the door as she slumped to the floor.

Jeremy then forced Sheila down beside the bed and shot her once in the throat.  With six cartridges left in the rifle, he headed back down the corridor where he fired two further shots into Nicholas and four into Daniel, emptying the magazine.  The element of 'overkill' would help his story that Sheila, in the grip of psychosis, was the guilty party.

He then retraced his footsteps to the master bedroom, intending to finish setting the scene.  To his shock he  found his sister incapacitated but still alive.  Quickly, he returned to the kitchen, loading a single cartridge into the magazine.  Upstairs once more, he crouched down and took aim.  The bullet went into Sheila's brain, killing her instantly.


My reconstruction will follow shortly....
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Myster

Re: Possible movements during night of Family on 6/7th August in WHF ??
« Reply #61 on: August 13, 2016, 03:53:15 PM »

My reconstruction will follow shortly....

....
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Possible movements during night of Family on 6/7th August in WHF ??
« Reply #62 on: August 13, 2016, 04:46:12 PM »
HOLLY'S RECONSTRUCTION

- NB and SC in kitchen.
- SC in possession of fully loaded rifle: 10 in mag and 1 in breach.
- NB phones JB: "Sheila's gone crazy, she's got the gun".
- SC goes upstairs to the main bedroom and shoots June 7 x's in quick succession whilst June is either in bed or starts to move out of it.
- 3 x bullets exit: DRH/9, 35 x 2.
- 7 x casings: DRH/6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 43.
- Meanwhile in the kitchen NB hears shots he drops the handset on kitchen worktop leaving the line open and goes upstairs.
- NB is standing on the landing stairs immediately preceding main bedroom.  This places NB on a lower elevation than SC who is now standing at the entrance facing NB diagonally and on a higher elevation which account for the downward trajectory of both shots.
- SC shoots NB twice: lip and jaw. 2 casings:  DRH/3 and 4.
- NB turns and is now located on the main staircase facing down towards the hall.
- SC follows behind and is once again on a higher elevation with NB on a lower elevation which account for the downward trajectory of both shots.
- SC shoots NB twice: back of the left shoulder and left elbow. 2 casings: DRH/13 and 14.
- The elbow is a graze wound and the bullet DRH/5 skims the side of NB's elbow and chest, then passes through the spindles of the banisters where it bounces and ricochets depositing two bloodstains on the carpet DRH/49 and DRH/47.
- The shoulder shot totally incapacitates NB's left arm.
- NB leaves a trail of blood on stairs, hall wallpaper and across kitchen floor.
- SC realises rifle is empty.
- In the kitchen NB places his bloody hand on the kitchen worktop by the phone.  Perhaps intending to warn off JB or dial 999.  Or even remove bullets JB left on worktop and found by police in same location.  Pathologist states the lip and jaw wounds caused such internal damage purposeful talk would not be possible.
- NB is in severe pain, losing blood fast internally and externally and has lost complete use of his left arm from the shoulder shot as stated by the pathologist.
- The idea of any sort of struggle in the kitchen let alone a "violent struggle" is completely out of the question due to the injuries NB sustained upstairs. 
- NB stumbles around the kitchen, bumping into furniture and ends up in a precarious position on the back of a kitchen chair with his body in a horizontal postion on the neck rest which is positioned vertically under his posterior.  NB topples forward on the chair and his head wedges in the coal scuttle. SC uses the rifle to rain down blows. 
- SC inserts 4 bullets into the magazine and fires them into NB's head.
- SC reloads the magazine to its full capacity of 10. 
- SC returns upstairs and shoots DC x 5, NC x 3.  She entered via the door from the landing and leaves via the side door leading to the the box room.  She passes through into the main bedroom where she shoots herself x 2.

* The silencer did not leave the gun cupboard
* Casings eject upwards, forwards and to the right
* The stairs referred to above are made up of 3 sections: main stairs leading from hall to winder stairs, winder stairs leading to landing and two stairs leading from landing to main bedroom
* My scenario is based on the following taking precedence:

 * Blood staining to carpet or lack of
 * Casings
 * Distance of shots
 * Trajectories
 * Wound tracks
« Last Edit: August 14, 2016, 09:52:23 PM by Holly Goodhead »
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Myster

Re: Possible movements during night of Family on 6/7th August in WHF ??
« Reply #63 on: August 13, 2016, 07:17:19 PM »
Unbelievable from the start.  He did go home... twice. First, when the Foakes heard him zoom past in the car down Pages Lane towards Head Street, and second, when he cycled back to his cottage either along Maldon Road or via the Sea Wall, after completing his murderous task.

As I've said numerous times before, if Nevill knew Sheila was "going crazy" with the rifle, he would have stopped and disarmed her before she had a chance to leave the kitchen, never mind climb the stairs. So there was no time-wasting phone call either before or after he was injured.

Had SC been positioned on the lower landing/winders firing down towards NB's back, DR13 and 14 would have been thrown through the stairwell into the Main Hall below, not to the right above her. Those two casings were most likely from the two headshots to June, collapsed at the doorway with the assailant on the upper landing and the rifle pointed vertically downwards (as per the casing diagram, second phase), or DRH14 was, as CAL mentioned, the result of a stovepipe jam being released by JB on his way back up from the kitchen.

How did a lightweight Sheila manage to lift and position a heavyweight Nevill across the chairback with his head conveniently in the scuttle so as to place those four fatal shots, without getting a trace of his blood on her hands, arms, feet or nightdress?  No blood-stained clothes of SC's were found by either the police or relatives, had she decided to wash herself and change before commiting suicide.
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Possible movements during night of Family on 6/7th August in WHF ??
« Reply #64 on: August 13, 2016, 08:52:46 PM »
Unbelievable from the start.  He did go home... twice. First, when the Foakes heard him zoom past in the car down Pages Lane towards Head Street, and second, when he cycled back to his cottage either along Maldon Road or via the Sea Wall, after completing his murderous task.

As I've said numerous times before, if Nevill knew Sheila was "going crazy" with the rifle, he would have stopped and disarmed her before she had a chance to leave the kitchen, never mind climb the stairs. So there was no time-wasting phone call either before or after he was injured.

Had SC been positioned on the lower landing/winders firing down towards NB's back, DR13 and 14 would have been thrown through the stairwell into the Main Hall below, not to the right above her. Those two casings were most likely from the two headshots to June, collapsed at the doorway with the assailant on the upper landing and the rifle pointed vertically downwards (as per the casing diagram, second phase), or DRH14 was, as CAL mentioned, the result of a stovepipe jam being released by JB on his way back up from the kitchen.

How did a lightweight Sheila manage to lift and position a heavyweight Nevill across the chairback with his head conveniently in the scuttle so as to place those four fatal shots, without getting a trace of his blood on her hands, arms, feet or nightdress?  No blood-stained clothes of SC's were found by either the police or relatives, had she decided to wash herself and change before commiting suicide.

The 'night he didn't go home' was in connection with this vid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMUrBhYpduY

Casings eject upwards, forward and to the right.  I think it's entirely plausible SC was able to shoot NB on the stairs with the casings ejecting over the handrail or through the spindles.   SC was 5'7" and probably had the rifle positioned somewhere around her upper body with the barrel pointing downwards putting the ejection port higher.  The stairwell is only a narrow gap.  You can get a sense of how far the casings travel right by how far they travelled from the shots June sustained to her right side in bed.  Also if SC was stood on the winder stairs I dont believe there's any potential obstructions there by way of spindles, handrail and stairwell.

If the assailant was on the upper landing with the rifle pointed downwards to inflict the two gunshot wounds June sustained to her head, the tracts of the wounds would not go up into her brain.  Also if the ejection port was vertical the casings would be blocked by the door and its frame.

If DRH/13 and 14 pertain to June's gsw's this leaves 7 casings June's side of the bed (8 if you believe 2 x DRH/7 exist).  Where was NB when he sustained 2 or 3 gsw's from the casings June's side of the bed?  And where was NB when he sustained the gsw's pertaining to casings DRH/3 and DRH/4?

NB was 6'4" with long legs.  I think it's possible he fell back on the back of the chair with his posterior on the back ie neck rest and then toppled forwards.  Can you upload this image please. 
« Last Edit: August 13, 2016, 09:10:32 PM by Holly Goodhead »
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Myster

Re: Possible movements during night of Family on 6/7th August in WHF ??
« Reply #65 on: August 13, 2016, 09:18:03 PM »
I'll come back to this sometime tomorrow. The photo you want is here... http://imgur.com/DjkLVLZ

« Last Edit: August 16, 2016, 12:21:29 PM by John »
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Mendoza

Re: Possible movements during night of Family on 6/7th August in WHF ??
« Reply #66 on: August 13, 2016, 09:59:41 PM »
I haven't contributed for a while but have been following the forum with interest. One question about your scenario Holly (well thought out and expressed imo) - if the sound moderator never left the gun cupboard that night, then how did blood ( mixed from persons, animals, whatever) get inside it? If it was tampered with by relatives/police, how could they have put blood into it, and more to the point perhaps, the "right" mix of blood to suggest it came from Sheila? This may sound a naive query, but I feel that the moderator and the DNA inside it is at the heart of this case.




Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Possible movements during night of Family on 6/7th August in WHF ??
« Reply #67 on: August 13, 2016, 10:15:34 PM »
I'll come back to this sometime tomorrow. The photo you want is here... http://imgur.com/DjkLVLZ

Thanks.  I'm wondering if we should try and produce a silhouetted image of June rather than replaying a graphic image. 

Also one of the shots June sustained to her head was when the gun was held at least one foot away from the body.  Why would JB hold the rifle vertically over a foot away from the body?

63. Of the seven injuries suffered by June Bamber, five were shots from the gun held at least one foot away from the body. The bullet wound between the eyes was fired from less than one foot away, and could have been with the gun in contact with the skin, although he viewed that as unlikely. Mr Fletcher was unable to estimate the range of the shot which had caused the injury to the right side of Mrs Bamber's chest.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2016, 10:23:27 PM by Holly Goodhead »
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline puglove

Re: Possible movements during night of Family on 6/7th August in WHF ??
« Reply #68 on: August 13, 2016, 11:03:39 PM »
JEREMY BAMBER - THE NIGHT HE MOST DEFINITELY DID NOT GO HOME BY HOLLY

- NB and SC in kitchen
- SC in possession of fully loaded rifle: 10 in mag and 1 in breach.
- NB phones JB: "Sheila's gone crazy, she's got the gun"
- SC goes upstairs to the main bedroom and shoots June 7 x's in quick succession whilst June is either in bed or starts to move out of it
- 3 x bullets exit: DRH/9, 35 x 2
- 7 x casings: DRH/6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 43
- Meanwhile in the kitchen NB hears shots he drops the handset on kitchen worktop leaving the line open and goes upstairs.
- NB is standing on stairs in landing immediately preceding main bedroom.  This places NB on a lower elevation than SC who is now standing at the entrance facing NB diagonally and on a higher elevation which account for the downward trajectory of both shots.
- SC shoots NB twice: lip and jaw. 2 casings:  DRH/3 and 4.
- A spot of blood falls to the carpet DRH/47
- NB turns and is now located on the main staircase facing down towards the hall.
- SC follows behind and is once again on a higher elevation with NB on a lower elevation which account for the downward trajectory of both shots.
- SC shoots NB twice: back of the left shoulder and left elbow. 2 casings: DRH/13 and 14.
- The elbow is a graze wound and the bullet DRH/5 skims the side of NB's elbow and chest, then passes through the spindles of the bannisters, first landing on the carpet between SC's bedroom and main bedroom depositing a small bloodstain DRH/49.  It ricochets and bounces into its final resting place.
- NB leaves a trail of blood on stairs, hall wallpaper and across kitchen floor.
- SC realises rifle is empty.
- In the kitchen NB places his bloody hand on the kitchen  worktop by the phone.  Perhaps intending to warn off JB or dial 999.  Or even remove bullets JB left on worktop and found by police in same location.  Pathologist states the lip and jaw wounds caused such internal damage purposeful talk would not be possible.
- NB is in severe pain, losing blood fast internally and externally and has lost complete use of his left arm from the shoulder shot as stated by the pathologist.
- The idea of any sort of struggle in the kitchen let alone a "violent struggle" is completely out of the question due to the injuries NB sustained upstairs.
- NB ends up in a precarious position on the back of his kitchen chair.  SC uses the rifle to rain down blows. 
- SC inserts 4 bullets into the magazine and fires them into NB's head.
- SC reloads the magazine to its full capacity of 10. 
- SC returns upstairs and shoots DC x 5, NC x 3 and herself x 2.

* The silencer did not leave the gun cupboard
* Casings eject upwards, forwards and to the right
* The stairs referred to above are made up of 3 sections: main stairs leading from hall to winder stairs, winder stairs leading to landing and two stairs leading from landing to main bedroom
* My scenario is based on the following taking precedence:

 * Blood staining to carpet or lack of
 * Casings
 * Distance of shots
 * Trajectories
 * Wound tracks

I look forward to a robust challenge  ?>)()<

Fair play to you, Holly. You're the only Bamber supporter who isn't mental, deluded, lazy or in love with him. But we've been over these points SO many times. There is absolutely no way that Ralph would leave Sheila holding a loaded gun and call Bamber. You can't rely on the positions of the casings because they could have been disturbed. Equally, you can't rely on trajectories - how can we know what Ralph was doing when he received the non-fatal shots? Was he running, twisting, stooping, stumbling? Not to mention my 2 ancient hobby horses....the lack of expirated blood on Sheila, and the fact that her arm was still malleable because it had been lying across her abdomen, which is the last part of the body to cool.

And I still think that the caravan park robbery, and how it was staged, is relevant. What went on between Ralph and Bamber when Ralph discovered the truth?

I also think that you have to question why June was in bed (she was a light sleeper) if Ralph was downstairs dealing with a "psychotic" Sheila.

For Bamber ("tonight's the night") it really was shit or bust. If he hadn't been such a dick to Julie, he would have got away with it. And why doesn't he get his lawyers and campaign team to hound Julie to the ends of the earth? He never mentions her. Don't forget that she willingly came back for his appeal, but wasn't called..... &%+((£
Jeremy Bamber kicked Mike Tesko in the fanny.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Possible movements during night of Family on 6/7th August in WHF ??
« Reply #69 on: August 13, 2016, 11:09:58 PM »
I haven't contributed for a while but have been following the forum with interest. One question about your scenario Holly (well thought out and expressed imo) - if the sound moderator never left the gun cupboard that night, then how did blood ( mixed from persons, animals, whatever) get inside it? If it was tampered with by relatives/police, how could they have put blood into it, and more to the point perhaps, the "right" mix of blood to suggest it came from Sheila? This may sound a naive query, but I feel that the moderator and the DNA inside it is at the heart of this case.

Hi Pauline.  Welcome back!

Thanks for your comments re my reconstruction.

The flake of blood supposedly found inside the silencer is by far the most important aspect of the case and underpins JB's conviction.  It is different from the blood on the outside of the silencer, the paint and hair in that the flake matches SC's blood by way of 1 x antigen, 1 x protein and 2 x enzymes.  It isn't statistically individualising like DNA, about 8% of population will share the antigen, protein and enzymes, but given all that surrounds it it's very compelling evidence taken at face value. 

The DNA testing carried out was by way of LCN (Low Copy Number) DNA.  LCN DNA is capable of producing a profile from only a few cells, which may be as small as a millionth the size of a grain of salt, and amount to a just few cells of skin.  Jurors handled June's nightwear along with the silencer so it's possible and likely imo that skin cells were transferred then or at the lab.  Bearing in mind DNA testing hadn't even been envisaged in 1985/86 so no precautions were taken to protect against contamination.  The problem also with LCN DNA is that because the samples are so small it is not possible to identify the biological source eg blood, skin cells, sweat, saliva etc.  The CoA ruled June's DNA was in the silencer and SC's wasn't but overall found it meaningless due to the potential for contamination which I agree with.  DNA from an unidentified male was also found inside the silencer but again this is meaningless when you consider how it was handled.

We could speculate about the blood on the outside, paint and hair but it's immaterial in relation to the flake inside. 

How did the flake get inside the silencer?  I have good reason to suspect it was fabricated at the lab on the basis that EP convinced the lab JB was guilty and was going to get away with it.  No one wants to think of a mass murderer walking away with some 400 plus k in 1985.  I do have good reason to think this but I'm afraid I'm unable to say more at this stage.   
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline puglove

Re: Possible movements during night of Family on 6/7th August in WHF ??
« Reply #70 on: August 13, 2016, 11:24:49 PM »
Hi Pauline.  Welcome back!

Thanks for your comments re my reconstruction.

The flake of blood supposedly found inside the silencer is by far the most important aspect of the case and underpins JB's conviction.  It is different from the blood on the outside of the silencer, the paint and hair in that the flake matches SC's blood by way of 1 x antigen, 1 x protein and 2 x enzymes.  It isn't statistically individualising like DNA, about 8% of population will share the antigen, protein and enzymes, but given all that surrounds it it's very compelling evidence taken at face value. 

The DNA testing carried out was by way of LCN (Low Copy Number) DNA.  LCN DNA is capable of producing a profile from only a few cells, which may be as small as a millionth the size of a grain of salt, and amount to a just few cells of skin.  Jurors handled June's nightwear along with the silencer so it's possible and likely imo that skin cells were transferred then or at the lab.  Bearing in mind DNA testing hadn't even been envisaged in 1985/86 so no precautions were taken to protect against contamination.  The problem also with LCN DNA is that because the samples are so small it is not possible to identify the biological source eg blood, skin cells, sweat, saliva etc.  The CoA ruled June's DNA was in the silencer and SC's wasn't but overall found it meaningless due to the potential for contamination which I agree with.  DNA from an unidentified male was also found inside the silencer but again this is meaningless when you consider how it was handled.

We could speculate about the blood on the outside, paint and hair but it's immaterial in relation to the flake inside. 

How did the flake get inside the silencer?  I have good reason to suspect it was fabricated at the lab on the basis that EP convinced the lab JB was guilty and was going to get away with it.  No one wants to think of a mass murderer walking away with some 400 plus k in 1985.  I do have good reason to think this but I'm afraid I'm unable to say more at this stage.

Bosting science, Holl. Seriously, you're up there with Magnus Pyke!!   8((()*/

As long as you don't pretend that Sheila's blood could have been distilled from a bucket of water. That would be very silly.     &%&£(+
Jeremy Bamber kicked Mike Tesko in the fanny.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Possible movements during night of Family on 6/7th August in WHF ??
« Reply #71 on: August 13, 2016, 11:39:36 PM »
Fair play to you, Holly. You're the only Bamber supporter who isn't mental, deluded, lazy or in love with him. But we've been over these points SO many times. There is absolutely no way that Ralph would leave Sheila holding a loaded gun and call Bamber. You can't rely on the positions of the casings because they could have been disturbed. Equally, you can't rely on trajectories - how can we know what Ralph was doing when he received the non-fatal shots? Was he running, twisting, stooping, stumbling? Not to mention my 2 ancient hobby horses....the lack of expirated blood on Sheila, and the fact that her arm was still malleable because it had been lying across her abdomen, which is the last part of the body to cool.

And I still think that the caravan park robbery, and how it was staged, is relevant. What went on between Ralph and Bamber when Ralph discovered the truth?

I also think that you have to question why June was in bed (she was a light sleeper) if Ralph was downstairs dealing with a "psychotic" Sheila.

For Bamber ("tonight's the night") it really was shit or bust. If he hadn't been such a dick to Julie, he would have got away with it. And why doesn't he get his lawyers and campaign team to hound Julie to the ends of the earth? He never mentions her. Don't forget that she willingly came back for his appeal, but wasn't called..... &%+((£

I agree it's not possible to rely totally on the casings but a cluster gives some idea eg those at June's side of the bed.  Also it's the totality of the crime scene in terms of blood staining to carpets and/or lack of, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks. 

Bullet trajectories are widely used in crime scene reconstruction.  Google 'bullet trajectory crime scene'.  The gsw's NB sustained were such close range the trajectories are highly accurate and relevant.  The pathologist wouldn't bother including if they're irrelevant.

I thought June took sleeping tablets?  Was June on any other medication?
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline puglove

Re: Possible movements during night of Family on 6/7th August in WHF ??
« Reply #72 on: August 13, 2016, 11:52:48 PM »
I agree it's not possible to rely totally on the casings but a cluster gives some idea eg those at June's side of the bed.  Also it's the totality of the crime scene in terms of blood staining to carpets and/or lack of, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks. 

Bullet trajectories are widely used in crime scene reconstruction.  Google 'bullet trajectory crime scene'.  The gsw's NB sustained were such close range the trajectories are highly accurate and relevant.  The pathologist wouldn't bother including if they're irrelevant.

I thought June took sleeping tablets?  Was June on any other medication?

Well, Holl, we both know that only small patches of the carpet were tested. And we both know that the casings could have been kicked about. We also have no idea if June took any sort of medication that would have stopped her worrying and being on high alert if Sheila suddenly changed from being sad and slow, to hyper and brandishing a gun.
Jeremy Bamber kicked Mike Tesko in the fanny.

Offline APRIL

Re: Possible movements during night of Family on 6/7th August in WHF ??
« Reply #73 on: August 14, 2016, 09:02:05 AM »
I agree it's not possible to rely totally on the casings but a cluster gives some idea eg those at June's side of the bed.  Also it's the totality of the crime scene in terms of blood staining to carpets and/or lack of, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks. 

Bullet trajectories are widely used in crime scene reconstruction.  Google 'bullet trajectory crime scene'.  The gsw's NB sustained were such close range the trajectories are highly accurate and relevant.  The pathologist wouldn't bother including if they're irrelevant.

I thought June took sleeping tablets?  Was June on any other medication?


It's been posited, on Blue, numerous times that June had been seeing her doctor for several months prior to the murders.  We're asked to believe, the underlying suggestion being, that she was suffering mental problems. However, if this was the case, June having previously had these problems, I wouldn't have thought that her GP would have allowed such a situation to carry on for months without referring her.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Possible movements during night of Family on 6/7th August in WHF ??
« Reply #74 on: August 14, 2016, 01:02:43 PM »
Well, Holl, we both know that only small patches of the carpet were tested. And we both know that the casings could have been kicked about. We also have no idea if June took any sort of medication that would have stopped her worrying and being on high alert if Sheila suddenly changed from being sad and slow, to hyper and brandishing a gun.

It's not clear the actual size of the carpet samples removed for testing.  Perhaps SOC officers were able to identify trails from one individual only.  If you take a look at the image above of June numerous blood spots are visible but it doesn't appear any lead out of the bedroom.

The casings could have been kicked about but PC Woodcock observed them before and  immediately after officers entered the main bedroom and hopefully care was taken not to disturb them.  As firearms officers they would surely receive training in this regard?  Someone produced diagrams showing all 25 casings.  SoC photos were taken of every casing and these formed part of DC Hammersley's trial testimony where he talked through every casing aided by SoC photos.  The prosecution and defence qc's and trial judge all pored over them.   If they're seen as totally unreliable evidence why waste court time?

I thought I read somewhere June took sleeping tablets but maybe not.  Perhaps I assumed she did on the basis  RWB said she had difficulty getting to sleep and would often hear noises and wake NB to investigate.  Would she hear noises if she was taking sleeping tablets?  She also suffered mental health issues.  Her last known breakdown was 1982.  Did she take any medication for this? 

If NB and SC were in kitchen with raised voices would June hear in the bedroom?   It's a fair distance away?  When FE and CC called NB informing him SC was psychotic (Mar '85) NB said he was unable to visit until the following day.  June wasn't involved.  She didn't say we must go immediately.  Or if she did it didn't happen.  NB turned up the following morning and he, along with June, took SC straight to St Andrews.   Perhaps Dr F discussed SC's issues with NB and June and as a result they were quite laid back about it.  Of course she wasn't in possession of a loaded firearm then but nevertheless they seemed pretty laid back given their daughter was psychotic and refusing medical treatment?  June visited SC weekly in London travelling in her own car.  If NB was unable to go why didn't June go on her own and stay with SC in London or take her to WHF?

Even today crimes involving firearms in UK are very low  especially compared with US.  WHF involved 25 gsw's and I just don't see the expertise existed to evaluate the scene properly.  If you read the reconstructions above from the DPP and Malcolm Fletcher they contain glaring errors which don't support known facts eg pathological evidence showing the two shots SC sustained happened seconds apart:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=732

There's no joined up thinking.  Today it would be a multi-disciplinary approach where all concerned would visit SoC and come to a joint decision eg SoC officers, ballistics, pathologist, biologist, psychologist/psychiatrist. 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?