Possible movements during night of Family on 6/7th August in WHF ??

[Myster]

Something for you to juggle with, Holly... when it's raining on your Butlins break in Bognor!

Download this free program (only 17MB) and install it... http://www.sketchup.com/products/sketchup-viewer

Then download these two WHF FF Casings Animated .skb and .skp files to your desktop... https://www.dropbox.com/home

When you start the program, first maximise the window. On the Menu Bar, click File, then Open; navigate to those two downloaded files above and click on the WHF FF Casings Animated.skp file.

WHF First Floor should now come into view.

Using a mouse, you can the click on the various icons on the left to Orbit, Pan, and Zoom around the model. Better still if you have a 3 or 5 button scroll-wheel mouse, because the scrolling action will zoom in and out, and by pressing and holding down the scroll wheel you can also rotate the model. Holding down the Left Shift keyboard button at the same time as the scroll wheel will enable you to pan, and re-centre the model easily.  You might struggle with a laptop touchpad though.

Click on the Scene 1-10 tab buttons in turn, to cycle through an animation. On the Menu Bar, you can also click on View, then Animation, then Play for a continuous animation until you press Stop.

If you get lost, click on the Zoom Extents button (a magnifying glass with three red arrows) on the left to return to a full screen model view.

Only a rough trial at this early stage, without details such as doors, windows, balusters, handrail, colours, etc... but should give you a better idea of the stair and bedroom layout than just a plan.

[John]

It might not be correct it's a reconstruction of what I think might have happened.  But the call definitely wasn't cancelled as the police were able to ask the GPO to listen in on the open line at 4.30 am.  Had the call been cancelled it would not be possible to do this:

27. At 3.35 a.m., Mr Bonnet arranged for a police car to go to White House Farm. A check made by a British Telecom operator of the telephone line to the farm was made at 4.30 a.m. The receiver was off the hook and all the operator could hear was the sound of a dog barking.

I don't think the old style rotary dial phones had any sort of volume control?  I doubt JB would hear a .22 going off in the main bedroom through the mouthpiece of a phone handset in the kitchen?  Surely this would mean if he could hear that the sound of a voice speaking directly into the mouthpiece would be so amplified it would burst an eardrum? 

It doesn't appear to me there's any evidence whatsover NB was shot anywhere in the bedroom:

- No casings other than DRH/3 and DRH/4 which lend support to the perp shooting out of the doorway at NB stood on the stairs
- No evidence of any of NB's blood anywhere in the bedroom
- The trajectories don't fit

That too is incorrect.  As long as the handset was not on the cradle, the BT operator could listen in regardless of whether the last call had been cancelled or not. 

As regards gunshots in the house, if Nevill was in the kitchen and could hear them then Jeremy could hear them too unless he was stone deaf.

[adam]

HOLLY'S RECONSTRUCTION

- NB and SC in kitchen.
- SC in possession of fully loaded rifle: 10 in mag and 1 in breach.
- NB phones JB: "Sheila's gone crazy, she's got the gun".
- SC goes upstairs to the main bedroom and shoots June 7 x's in quick succession whilst June is either in bed or starts to move out of it.
- 3 x bullets exit: DRH/9, 35 x 2.
- 7 x casings: DRH/6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 43.
- Meanwhile in the kitchen NB hears shots he drops the handset on kitchen worktop leaving the line open and goes upstairs.
- NB is standing on the landing stairs immediately preceding main bedroom.  This places NB on a lower elevation than SC who is now standing at the entrance facing NB diagonally and on a higher elevation which account for the downward trajectory of both shots.
- SC shoots NB twice: lip and jaw. 2 casings:  DRH/3 and 4.
- NB turns and is now located on the main staircase facing down towards the hall.
- SC follows behind and is once again on a higher elevation with NB on a lower elevation which account for the downward trajectory of both shots.
- SC shoots NB twice: back of the left shoulder and left elbow. 2 casings: DRH/13 and 14.
- The elbow is a graze wound and the bullet DRH/5 skims the side of NB's elbow and chest, then passes through the spindles of the banisters where it bounces and ricochets depositing two bloodstains on the carpet DRH/49 and DRH/47.
- The shoulder shot totally incapacitates NB's left arm.
- NB leaves a trail of blood on stairs, hall wallpaper and across kitchen floor.
- SC realises rifle is empty.
- In the kitchen NB places his bloody hand on the kitchen worktop by the phone.  Perhaps intending to warn off JB or dial 999.  Or even remove bullets JB left on worktop and found by police in same location.  Pathologist states the lip and jaw wounds caused such internal damage purposeful talk would not be possible.
- NB is in severe pain, losing blood fast internally and externally and has lost complete use of his left arm from the shoulder shot as stated by the pathologist.
- The idea of any sort of struggle in the kitchen let alone a "violent struggle" is completely out of the question due to the injuries NB sustained upstairs. 
- NB stumbles around the kitchen, bumping into furniture and ends up in a precarious position on the back of a kitchen chair with his body in a horizontal postion on the neck rest which is positioned vertically under his posterior.  NB topples forward on the chair and his head wedges in the coal scuttle. SC uses the rifle to rain down blows. 
- SC inserts 4 bullets into the magazine and fires them into NB's head.
- SC reloads the magazine to its full capacity of 10. 
- SC returns upstairs and shoots DC x 5, NC x 3.  She entered via the door from the landing and leaves via the side door leading to the the box room.  She passes through into the main bedroom where she shoots herself x 2.

* The silencer did not leave the gun cupboard
* Casings eject upwards, forwards and to the right
* The stairs referred to above are made up of 3 sections: main stairs leading from hall to winder stairs, winder stairs leading to landing and two stairs leading from landing to main bedroom
* My scenario is based on the following taking precedence:

 * Blood staining to carpet or lack of
 * Casings
 * Distance of shots
 * Trajectories
 * Wound tracks

It's good that you have created a reconstruction.

And also good that you have dismissed Bamber's preposturous claim that Neville phoned Chelmsford police. Only Sherlock has admitted that Neville couldn't have phoned Chelmsford police when he attempted a scenario. All other supporters refuse to discard this card.

There is no evidence that Bamber had left a rifle out. Or had gone to shoot rabbits. If there was a rifle left out there is a strong chance Neville or June had put it away hours earlier. 

In the unlikely event there was a rifle in the kitchen, it's likely Sheila didn't pick it up straight away. If both Neville and Sheila were together out of bed, Neville would have put the rifle away before Sheila took it.

If Neville and Sheila were in the kitchen together and Sheila had somehow got the rifle,  Neville would just take the rifle off her. Either through force, persuasion or both. He would know it was a rifle for shooting rabbits rather than a shot gun.  And know Sheila had no experience with it.

The last thing Neville would do if Sheila had picked up a rifle is spend several minutes phoning Bamber. There is a thread with 40 reasons why he wouldn't.

If Neville was phoning Bamber, he wouldn't let Sheila go upstairs with the rifle. He would just put the phone down while waiting for Bamber to answer and stop or follow her. He can always phone Bamber upstairs or ask June for assistance.

With or without the silencer attached, Neville wouldn't hear the shots upstairs with his one free ear when phoning Bamber. However the fact that he only said 11 words to Bamber before the call ended suggests Neville did amazingly hear rifle shots. It seems he heard these shots at the exact same time Bamber answered the phone.

If Neville somehow heard Shots upstairs he was going upstairs to resolve the serious situation by confronting Sheila. He was still fully fit. He could have brought something up with him, to protect his upper body prior to smothering Sheila. Rather than just run upstairs bare footed in pyjamas.

If Sheila did start shooting June while Neville was downstairs, she had plenty of time to empty the rifle before Neville got upstairs. It only takes a second to fire a shot. If she was in such a crazy rage to fire 7 bullets there is no reason why she wouldn't keep firing until the rifle was empty. Sheila would not know how many bullets the rifle held.

I thought the concensus was June did not receive all 7 shots at the same time. Some were fired into her later while she was on the floor. This would have meant Sheila had more than 4 bullets to fire at Neville upstairs.

A sleeping June would not have the chance to start moving out of bed if receiving close range rapid rifle shots. She would naturally move across the bed further away from the rifle. It's been suggested she walked across the bedroom and back again. Was Sheila letting June do this while Neville was running upstairs ? Why wasn't the rifle emptied ?

After going upstairs when hearing shots it seems Neville didn't confront Sheila at all. He would have just charged her and would not be thinking about receiving a bullet himself as his priority was his family. However he did nothing except get close enough to Sheila to let himself get shot four times in the face and body. Before running straight back downstairs.

If Neville was going to retreat straight after running upstairs unprotected,  he could have gone into another upstairs room before steeling himself to tackle Sheila.  Running away back downstairs is not assisting June who he now knew had been shot multiple times.

The evidence shows there was a violent struggle in the kitchen. Neville's body and face injuries and bruises and the upturned furniture show this.

Neville stumbling around not able to put up a fight would not smash a ceiling light or scratch the aga. The only evidence I have read about Neville's first four shots are that he would not be able to engage in purposeful talk. The judge at trial believed after his first four shots Neville was able to and did 'put up a tremendous fight for life'. Sheila would have been over powered or receive injuries.

In conclusion there would have to be well over 20 either extremely unlikely,  or 1 in a million occurances to happen in quick succession. One may happen, but not 20.

[John]

The telephone in the kitchen was discovered as below.  There was no blood on the phone, the handset, the kitchen cabinet or on the floor below.



Jeremy Bamber's testimony as to the claimed phone call from his father is not credible.  Had there actually been something going on in the house there would have been background noises, dog barking, sound of shots, screaming, yelling etc etc...

His version of events might have been believable had the call not been cancelled or had the call been cancelled simply by the handset being replaced.  For the sake of argument, had Nevill actually been in the kitchen prior to being shot and had he made a call to Jeremy for assistance and had he been alerted to something going on upstairs then he would have left the telephone handset on the worktop and left the line open.  That didn't happen, Jeremy claims the line just went dead.  This negated the need for him to invent a story as to what he heard next.

Jeremy's version is simply improbable and unrealistic.

[Holly Goodhead]

Something for you to juggle with, Holly... when it's raining on your Butlins break in Bognor!

Download this free program (only 17MB) and install it... http://www.sketchup.com/products/sketchup-viewer

Then download these two WHF FF Casings Animated .skb and .skp files to your desktop... https://www.dropbox.com/home

When you start the program, first maximise the window. On the Menu Bar, click File, then Open; navigate to those two downloaded files above and click on the WHF FF Casings Animated.skp file.

WHF First Floor should now come into view.

Using a mouse, you can the click on the various icons on the left to Orbit, Pan, and Zoom around the model. Better still if you have a 3 or 5 button scroll-wheel mouse, because the scrolling action will zoom in and out, and by pressing and holding down the scroll wheel you can also rotate the model. Holding down the Left Shift keyboard button at the same time as the scroll wheel will enable you to pan, and re-centre the model easily.  You might struggle with a laptop touchpad though.

Click on the Scene 1-10 tab buttons in turn, to cycle through an animation. On the Menu Bar, you can also click on View, then Animation, then Play for a continuous animation until you press Stop.

If you get lost, click on the Zoom Extents button (a magnifying glass with three red arrows) on the left to return to a full screen model view.

Only a rough trial at this early stage, without details such as doors, windows, balusters, handrail, colours, etc... but should give you a better idea of the stair and bedroom layout than just a plan.

Thanks Myster.  I'll have a go and see if I can also rope in some helping hands.   

[Holly Goodhead]

That too is incorrect.  As long as the handset was not on the cradle, the BT operator could listen in regardless of whether the last call had been cancelled or not. 

As regards gunshots in the house, if Nevill was in the kitchen and could hear them then Jeremy could hear them too unless he was stone deaf.

I guess the BT op was unable to confirm one way or another whether the line was open or not? 

I set up an experiment a while back in an attempt to ascertain how close the barking dog would need to be to the mouthpiece to be heard down the phone.  I phoned my cordless landline with my mobile leaving both lines open.  I then played a barking dog on my lappy.  The closer the lappy was to the cordless phone the clearer she could be heard.  When I moved lappy into the utility room about 12' away from cordless phone with the door half open I was unable to hear the dog barking on my mobile from the bottom of the garden. 

[John]

I guess the BT op was unable to confirm one way or another whether the line was open or not? 

I set up an experiment a while back in an attempt to ascertain how close the barking dog would need to be to the mouthpiece to be heard down the phone.  I phoned my cordless landline with my mobile leaving both lines open.  I then played a barking dog on my lappy.  The closer the lappy was to the cordless phone the clearer she could be heard.  When I moved lappy into the utility room about 12' away from cordless phone with the door half open I was unable to hear the dog barking on my mobile from the bottom of the garden.

Back in 1985 the BT operator could listen in on any line at any time.  The only thing which prevents them hearing anything is whether the handset was on or off the cradle.  If the handset was off the cradle the operator can listen in to everything.  If the handset is on the cradle the operator could still listen in but they wouldn't hear anything as the handset microphone would be deactivated.

[Angelo222]

Back in 1985 the BT operator could listen in on any line at any time.  The only thing which prevents them hearing anything is whether the handset was on or off the cradle.  If the handset was off the cradle the operator can listen in to everything.  If the handset is on the cradle the operator could still listen in but they wouldn't hear anything as the handset microphone would be deactivated.

Nevill Bamber wouldn't have telephoned Jeremy unless the situation had gone way beyond his control. Nevill was very capable of dealing with Sheila which makes the situation related by Jeremy Bamber sound all the more ridiculous.

[Myster]

Thanks Myster.  I'll have a go and see if I can also rope in some helping hands.   

I've just logged on for a few minutes and noticed your post, so I uploaded two similar additional files, cleaned up without construction lines, etc.  Maybe easier to read, so try to download those two instead...

https://www.dropbox.com/home

[Holly Goodhead]

It's good that you have created a reconstruction.

And also good that you have dismissed Bamber's preposturous claim that Neville phoned Chelmsford police. Only Sherlock has admitted that Neville couldn't have phoned Chelmsford police when he attempted a scenario. All other supporters refuse to discard this card.

There is no evidence that Bamber had left a rifle out. Or had gone to shoot rabbits. If there was a rifle left out there is a strong chance Neville or June had put it away hours earlier. 

In the unlikely event there was a rifle in the kitchen, it's likely Sheila didn't pick it up straight away. If both Neville and Sheila were together out of bed, Neville would have put the rifle away before Sheila took it.

If Neville and Sheila were in the kitchen together and Sheila had somehow got the rifle,  Neville would just take the rifle off her. Either through force, persuasion or both. He would know it was a rifle for shooting rabbits rather than a shot gun.  And know Sheila had no experience with it.

The last thing Neville would do if Sheila had picked up a rifle is spend several minutes phoning Bamber. There is a thread with 40 reasons why he wouldn't.

If Neville was phoning Bamber, he wouldn't let Sheila go upstairs with the rifle. He would just put the phone down while waiting for Bamber to answer and stop or follow her. He can always phone Bamber upstairs or ask June for assistance.

With or without the silencer attached, Neville wouldn't hear the shots upstairs with his one free ear when phoning Bamber. However the fact that he only said 11 words to Bamber before the call ended suggests Neville did amazingly hear rifle shots. It seems he heard these shots at the exact same time Bamber answered the phone.

If Neville somehow heard Shots upstairs he was going upstairs to resolve the serious situation by confronting Sheila. He was still fully fit. He could have brought something up with him, to protect his upper body prior to smothering Sheila. Rather than just run upstairs bare footed in pyjamas.

If Sheila did start shooting June while Neville was downstairs, she had plenty of time to empty the rifle before Neville got upstairs. It only takes a second to fire a shot. If she was in such a crazy rage to fire 7 bullets there is no reason why she wouldn't keep firing until the rifle was empty. Sheila would not know how many bullets the rifle held.

I thought the concensus was June did not receive all 7 shots at the same time. Some were fired into her later while she was on the floor. This would have meant Sheila had more than 4 bullets to fire at Neville upstairs.

A sleeping June would not have the chance to start moving out of bed if receiving close range rapid rifle shots. She would naturally move across the bed further away from the rifle. It's been suggested she walked across the bedroom and back again. Was Sheila letting June do this while Neville was running upstairs ? Why wasn't the rifle emptied ?

After going upstairs when hearing shots it seems Neville didn't confront Sheila at all. He would have just charged her and would not be thinking about receiving a bullet himself as his priority was his family. However he did nothing except get close enough to Sheila to let himself get shot four times in the face and body. Before running straight back downstairs.

If Neville was going to retreat straight after running upstairs unprotected,  he could have gone into another upstairs room before steeling himself to tackle Sheila.  Running away back downstairs is not assisting June who he now knew had been shot multiple times.

The evidence shows there was a violent struggle in the kitchen. Neville's body and face injuries and bruises and the upturned furniture show this.

Neville stumbling around not able to put up a fight would not smash a ceiling light or scratch the aga. The only evidence I have read about Neville's first four shots are that he would not be able to engage in purposeful talk. The judge at trial believed after his first four shots Neville was able to and did 'put up a tremendous fight for life'. Sheila would have been over powered or receive injuries.

In conclusion there would have to be well over 20 either extremely unlikely,  or 1 in a million occurances to happen in quick succession. One may happen, but not 20.

As I said in the above post, my reconstruction is based on the physical evidence from the scene of crime:

- Blood staining or abscene of
- Casings and exited bullets
- Distance of shots
- Pathological evidence
- Trajectories
- Wound tracks

Your post seems to be based on supposition. 

My reconstruction can fit a guilty JB but it would not be as credible:

JB sneaks upstairs, with a full load of 10 in mag, 1 in breech and a pocket full of bullets.  He shoots DC and NC a total of 8 times.  Loads the rifle to max again (11).  Enters the main bedroom via the box room ie NB's side of the bed.  NB hears noises and leaves the bedroom to investigate prior to JB entering the main bedroom.  JB shoots June a total of 7 x's casings: DRH/6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 43.  NB appears at bedroom door and sustains the jaw and lip shots 2 x casings: DRH/3 and 4.  He turns and is then shot on the main staircase casings: DRH/13 and 14.  JB follows NB to kitchen etc.  However what was SC doing?  For SC to have been found where she was would then mean she would need to walk past the corpses of her twin sons or mother and not put up any resistance to JB.     Also would JB waste bullets and time on victims that could put up little or no threat to his plans?  Would JB shoot June knowing he had already shot the twins and NB was on the loose in WHF?  NB could potentially be arming himself.  Return the phone to the cradle in the kitchen and phone out.  Escape the building. 

As far as I can see there isn't any pathological evidence showing any one shot would incapacitate June to the extent she was unable to walk round the bed and back to the door where she collapsed.  Dr V said the two head shots would result in death quickly.  Nothing about instantly or immobilise.  Dr V said he was unable to make any comment about the order of shots to June.

[Holly Goodhead]

Back in 1985 the BT operator could listen in on any line at any time.  The only thing which prevents them hearing anything is whether the handset was on or off the cradle.  If the handset was off the cradle the operator can listen in to everything.  If the handset is on the cradle the operator could still listen in but they wouldn't hear anything as the handset microphone would be deactivated.

I see so basically provided the handset is off the cradle the op can hear everything.  Thanks.

[Holly Goodhead]

I've just logged on for a few minutes and noticed your post, so I uploaded two similar additional files, cleaned up without construction lines, etc.  Maybe easier to read, so try to download those two instead...

https://www.dropbox.com/home

Thanks. 

[Holly Goodhead]

The telephone in the kitchen was discovered as below.  There was no blood on the phone, the handset, the kitchen cabinet or on the floor below.



Jeremy Bamber's testimony as to the claimed phone call from his father is not credible.  Had there actually been something going on in the house there would have been background noises, dog barking, sound of shots, screaming, yelling etc etc...

His version of events might have been believable had the call not been cancelled or had the call been cancelled simply by the handset being replaced.  For the sake of argument, had Nevill actually been in the kitchen prior to being shot and had he made a call to Jeremy for assistance and had he been alerted to something going on upstairs then he would have left the telephone handset on the worktop and left the line open.  That didn't happen, Jeremy claims the line just went dead.  This negated the need for him to invent a story as to what he heard next.

Jeremy's version is simply improbable and unrealistic.

I'm sure I've seen an image of bloody fingerprints on the worktop?

[Holly Goodhead]

As far as I can see whether or not NB called JB is simply based on peoples' perceptions.  The physical evidence of the SoC suggests NB did indeed call JB.

[Angelo222]

As far as I can see whether or not NB called JB is simply based on peoples' perceptions.  The physical evidence of the SoC suggests NB did indeed call JB.

No it doesn't... what evidence are you suggesting Holls?