Possible movements during night of Family on 6/7th August in WHF ??

[Holly Goodhead]

No it doesn't... what evidence are you suggesting Holls?

My reconstruction based on the physical evidence found at SoC:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7466.msg349198#msg349198

- Blood staining or absence of
- Casings and exited bullets
- Distance of shots
- Pathological evidence
- Trajectories
- Wound tracks

To some degree it is possible to create a reconstruction using the above physical evidence and build a logical sequence of events.  There's absolutely no evidence whatsoever NB was shot in the bedroom.  The physical evidence suggests the perp shot NB whilst he was on the landing (jaw and lip) whilst the perp was stood in the main bedroom.  This in turns suggests NB was on the phone to JB whilst SC run up the stairs and shot June in bed 7 x's in quick succession. 

[Holly Goodhead]

In DC Hammersley's trial testimony DRH/1 is referred to by way of SoC photos:

"You see the bullet case between the slipper and the bible?"

I wasn't aware of any slipper near the bible?  Maybe the slipper is situated in a soc photo I haven't seen?  I think maybe Myster provided a photo showing a slipper under the bed?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=199

[Myster]

In DC Hammersley's trial testimony DRH/1 is referred to by way of SoC photos:

"You see the bullet case between the slipper and the bible?"

I wasn't aware of any slipper near the bible?  Maybe the slipper is situated in a soc photo I haven't seen?  I think maybe Myster provided a photo showing a slipper under the bed?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=199

That photo was in Sheila's bedroom with the slippers on the left of the unused bed. Caroline seemed to think they were Nevill's and they do look as if they are men's.  But in a different photo of the main bedroom, I also noticed what appeared to be a slipper between Sheila's right arm and a chair with clothes on it. A very grainy image so difficult to be certain, but it must be if that's what was said in court. It's on my other hard drive I think, so you'll have to wait if you really want it.

[Myster]

Holly... Have you tried downloading those two SketchUp files without having to sign in or join Dropbox yet?

If you haven't and don't want to join, I can upload them to a different file sharer where you only need to enter a captcha code.

[Holly Goodhead]

Holly... Have you tried downloading those two SketchUp files without having to sign in or join Dropbox yet?

If you haven't and don't want to join, I can upload them to a different file sharer where you only need to enter a captcha code.

"SketchUp files, Dropbox, captcha code"...my head is hurting very, very much 

I will have a go.  I need something very user friendly!  Whatever you suggest I will go with but I haven't had time yet.  Earlier today I spoke with an organisation who do this sort of thing.  I know exactly what I want and think I can get this over to someone but I'm not sure I'm the person to actually produce it!  I know my limitations!

Either way I'm going to start off with the upstairs shots to June and NB only and I will then build on it.  I'm not sure yet about some of the other aspects eg bible, position of perp and NB in kitchen etc.  I will only produce things in animated format that I am very confident about and I can support by way of official documents etc. 

 

[Holly Goodhead]

That photo was in Sheila's bedroom with the slippers on the left of the unused bed. Caroline seemed to think they were Nevill's and they do look as if they are men's.  But in a different photo of the main bedroom, I also noticed what appeared to be a slipper between Sheila's right arm and a chair with clothes on it. A very grainy image so difficult to be certain, but it must be if that's what was said in court.It's on my other hard drive I think, so you'll have to wait if you really want it.

Said the bishop to the actress as she sat brushing her hair in anticipation of what might be...

[Myster]

"SketchUp files, Dropbox, captcha code"...my head is hurting very, very much 

I will have a go.  I need something very user friendly!  Whatever you suggest I will go with but I haven't had time yet.  Earlier today I spoke with an organisation who do this sort of thing.  I know exactly what I want and think I can get this over to someone but I'm not sure I'm the person to actually produce it!  I know my limitations!

Either way I'm going to start off with the upstairs shots to June and NB only and I will then build on it.  I'm not sure yet about some of the other aspects eg bible, position of perp and NB in kitchen etc.  I will only produce things in animated format that I am very confident about and I can support by way of official documents etc. 

The program itself is user-friendly! For the other two files, a captcha code is only four letters/numbers you have to enter to make sure you're not a robot!

I've tried it out on a seven year old laptop with an onboard graphics card and it works well. The lines are not as smooth as they are on a PC with a more powerful graphics card, but nevertheless the drawing is readable.

You only have to get used to the controls - preferably with a three button scroll-wheel mouse, as I mentioned before, and moving and manipulating the model is done with just one finger clicking on the left mouse button and one on the left Shift key. The scroll-wheel will make it easier to zoom in and out as well.

The main program is just 17 Megabytes and takes only a minute to install, and then even less to find and open those two files from your desktop once downloaded.  Here they are, just enter the captcha...

http://www.filedropper.com/whfffcasingsanimatedcleaned

http://www.filedropper.com/whfffcasingsanimatedcleaned_1

and the program... http://www.sketchup.com/products/sketchup-viewer

It may even give you a better idea of what you want from this graphics company.

If you get stuck, you can always pm me.

[Myster]

Said the bishop to the actress as she sat brushing her hair in anticipation of what might be...

    I forgot that you enjoy a little inyourend oh!

[Myster]

P.S. - You might have to enter the captcha two or three times before they allow you to download each file. Also make sure that you enter the letters in upper-case.

[adam]

As I said in the above post, my reconstruction is based on the physical evidence from the scene of crime:

- Blood staining or abscene of
- Casings and exited bullets
- Distance of shots
- Pathological evidence
- Trajectories
- Wound tracks

Your post seems to be based on supposition. 

My reconstruction can fit a guilty JB but it would not be as credible:

JB sneaks upstairs, with a full load of 10 in mag, 1 in breech and a pocket full of bullets.  He shoots DC and NC a total of 8 times.  Loads the rifle to max again (11).  Enters the main bedroom via the box room ie NB's side of the bed.  NB hears noises and leaves the bedroom to investigate prior to JB entering the main bedroom.  JB shoots June a total of 7 x's casings: DRH/6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 43.  NB appears at bedroom door and sustains the jaw and lip shots 2 x casings: DRH/3 and 4.  He turns and is then shot on the main staircase casings: DRH/13 and 14.  JB follows NB to kitchen etc.  However what was SC doing?  For SC to have been found where she was would then mean she would need to walk past the corpses of her twin sons or mother and not put up any resistance to JB.     Also would JB waste bullets and time on victims that could put up little or no threat to his plans?  Would JB shoot June knowing he had already shot the twins and NB was on the loose in WHF?  NB could potentially be arming himself.  Return the phone to the cradle in the kitchen and phone out.  Escape the building. 

As far as I can see there isn't any pathological evidence showing any one shot would incapacitate June to the extent she was unable to walk round the bed and back to the door where she collapsed.  Dr V said the two head shots would result in death quickly.  Nothing about instantly or immobilise.  Dr V said he was unable to make any comment about the order of shots to June.

I doubt June would have walked across the bedroom and back again, if she got all 7 shots in succession. But if she did it makes no difference to whether Bamber did it or not -


43. Mrs Bamber was bare footed and dressed in a nightdress. She had received seven gunshot wounds, of which one to her forehead and one to the right side of the head would have caused death very quickly.


You didn't address any of my 20+ 'extremely unlikely' or '1 in a million' occurances in reply 92. That would have to have happened if Sheila committed the massacre. Just gave an unlikely scenario on how Bamber could have done it which can be pulled apart. Myself, CAL and the police have already submitted credible Bamber scenarios which match the crime scene.

[Holly Goodhead]

I doubt June would have walked across the bedroom and back again, if she got all 7 shots in succession. But if she did it makes no difference to whether Bamber did it or not -


43. Mrs Bamber was bare footed and dressed in a nightdress. She had received seven gunshot wounds, of which one to her forehead and one to the right side of the head would have caused death very quickly.


You didn't address any of my 20+ 'extremely unlikely' or '1 in a million' occurances in reply 92. That would have to have happened if Sheila committed the massacre. Just gave an unlikely scenario on how Bamber could have done it which can be pulled apart. Myself, CAL and the police have already submitted credible Bamber scenarios which match the crime scene.

I guess it's easy to assume two gsw's to the head would prove instantly fatal but in the absence of any pathological evidence it's not clear. 

Pathological evidence re the gsw's NB sustained to his head is clearer:

41. Nevill Bamber, who was wearing his pyjamas had been shot eight times. There were two wounds to the right side and two to the top of the head. If not immediately fatal, the combined effect of these four injuries would have been immediate unconsciousness and incapacitation.

The reason for this might simply be down to the fact others (police? JB's defense?) asked questions and the pathologist made a further report:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=205.msg2230#msg2230

This further report only covers NB's and SC's gsw's.

There are 7 casings June's side of the bed, either actually on the bed or on the carpet her side of the bed (8 casings if you believe 2 x DRH/7 exist.  I don't).  I don't believe any of the 7 casings in a cluster June's side of the bed pertain to gsw's sustained by NB.  Given that June was shot in bed, got out, walked round the bed and collapsed by the door this leads me to believe she was shot 7 x's in quick succession in bed and as she was getting out.  Despite the 7 gsw's she was still capable walking round the bed before she collapsed.   

I can't see that your "20+ 'extremely unlikely' or '1 in a million' occurrences in reply 92" relate to the physical evidence of the soc:

- Blood staining or absence of
- Casings and exited bullets
- Distance of shots
- Pathological evidence
- Trajectories
- Wound tracks

The police and CAL's scenarios are fundamentally flawed in that they contradict pathological evidence ie that the two gsw's SC sustained happened within a few seconds of each other.  The police and CAL claim JB shot SC once then went off to shoot others, running around, up and down the stairs, reloading etc. 

[Holly Goodhead]

Author - Carol Ann Lee

Climbing the stairs, he steeled himself to kill the greatest threats first: his parents.  A thin film of moonlight glimmered through the curtains in the master bedroom, where his parents lay sleeping.  He stood in the doorway, lifted the rifle, and fired.

How does she know a thin film of moonlight glimmered through the curtains in the master bedroom?  The cluster of casings June's side of the bed suggest the perp was stood at the foot of the bed.

The first two shots pierced the right side of June's chest, embedding themselves in the pillow.  Another shot hit her in the arm and a third travelled up inside her leg, lodging in her knee.  The terrible impact woke Nevill, who lurched out of bed.  Jeremy turned the gun on his father, firing four shots that caught him on his left side: two bullets penetrated his forearm and shoulder, and two tore into his lip and jaw.

The pathologist said he was unable to say the order of gsw's June sustained.  As far as I can see no bullet travelled up inside June's leg, lodging in her knee?  The pathologist said there was an entry wound to the outer aspect of the knee and exit wound just above the knee:  http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?PHPSESSID=bel9kk2sf3h0e3seldpgbhi[Name removed]0&action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=688

Is CAL even aware that the gsw's  NB sustained to his elbow (no forearm) and shoulder were from the back?

Jeremy left the room, heading down the first flight of stairs and through the corridor to the twins' bedroom, firing one shot into each slumbering child.  With all ten cartridges expended, he made his way down to the kitchen to reload.

How does CAL know the perp only had 10 bullets?  A bullet may have been loaded in the breach with 10 in the mag making a total of 11.

He managed to slot four cartridges into the magazine before his father stumbled into the room.  A fierce fight for possession of the weapon ensued: they fell against the table, knocking it into the dresser and sending crockery to the floor.  The rifle struck the overhead lampshade, shattering it.  Jeremy used the gun to beat his father about the arms, head and face; Nevill's watch broke and skittered across the lino.  The struggle came to a brutal end near the Aga, where the rifle damaged the underside of the mantel.  As Nevill collapsed over a chair, landing at an impossible angle with his pyjamas tangling around his feet, Jeremy brought the gun down on his skull, then fired four shots into his head.

The pathologist describes NB putting up a "spirited defence".  Given the nature of the injuries he sustained upstairs, including the complete loss of his left arm, how could  he enter into a "fierce fight"?

The last produced a stovepipe jam, trapping the empty cartridge case in the ejection port.  Jeremy removed the magazine and loaded it to its full capacity, then inserted it into the magazine well.  Climbing the stairs again, he cleared the jammed cartridge by working the bolt.  It fell out, rolling towards the skirting board on the first landing.

Where's the evidence of a stovepipe jam?

While father and son were fighting in the kitchen, June had managed to force herself up from bed.  The commotion had also woken Sheila, who crossed the landing to her parents' bedroom, drowsy and confused.  At the sight of her mother bleeding profusely as she steadied herself on the edge of the bed, Sheila rushed to the other side of the room, where the door to the box room was the quickest route to the twins.  June staggered round the bed after her, but before she could reach Sheila, Jeremy returned with the gun.

Why would SC be "drowsy and confused"?

Sheila froze.  June started towards her son, who fired three more shots into her neck, head and finally between the eyes.  June hit her shoulder against the door as she slumped to the floor.

The casings June's side of the bed suggest she was shot whilst in bed or getting out and not elsewhere.

Jeremy then forced Sheila down beside the bed and shot her once in the throat.  With six cartridges left in the rifle, he headed back down the corridor where he fired two further shots into Nicholas and four into Daniel, emptying the magazine.  The element of 'overkill' would help his story that Sheila, in the grip of psychosis, was the guilty party.

He then retraced his footsteps to the master bedroom, intending to finish setting the scene.  To his shock he  found his sister incapacitated but still alive.  Quickly, he returned to the kitchen, loading a single cartridge into the magazine.  Upstairs once more, he crouched down and took aim.  The bullet went into Sheila's brain, killing her instantly.

The pathologist said the two gsw's SC sustained happened within a few seconds of each other.  CAL has JB shooting SC once.  Then going off to shoot the twins further to create an element of 'overkill' with JB returning to the main bedroom to 'set the scene' only to find SC still alive.  According to CAL he then returns to the kitchen to load a single bullet into the mag before returning upstairs to kill SC:  http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=732


It's frightening that an author of true crime can put together a scenario which is completely at odds with the ballistic and pathological evidence.  More so when I consider that she interviewed Malcolm Fletcher and Peter Vanezis and therefore had the opportunity to clarify any points etc. 

[Myster]

I thought you once gave it a good review?

https://www.waterstones.com/books/reviews/isbn/9781447285755#review-70301

[Holly Goodhead]

Police

"The official police account of how Jeremy Bamber killed his family is contained in the report to the Director of Public Prosecutions in November 1985, written with a view to having him committed for trial.

Acknowledging that the order of death could not be determined with certainty, the report contends that:

...there were probably ten shots fired in the first fusillade [four into Nevill, one into Sheila and five into June] and the remaining three - two into June's head, one into Sheila's head- were inflicted after Ralph Nevill was killed in the kitchen.  Eight shots were fired into the boys - eight cases were recovered in their bedroom.  Four shots were fired into Ralph Nevill in the kitchen - namely, the two in his temple area and the two in the top of his head.  Three cartridge cases were recovered in the kitchen.  It is therefore reasonable to assume that the fourth cartridge case was carried on the feet of the killer, or possibly a police officer, and deposited on the stairway.

Probably 10 shots fired in the first fusillade?  Why not 11 with 1 in the breach? 

It appears all June's gsw's were sustained whilst she was in bed or getting out. 

The pathologist said SC's gsw's happened within a few seconds of each other http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=732.  The police have JB in the kitchen with NB and then returning to the bedroom to inflict the fatal shot to SC.

Why is it reasoanble to assume that a fourth casing from a gsw NB sustained in the kitchen was transferred to the landing/stairway?  This was the casing PC Woodcock identified in his WS as PC Collins was mirroring up the stairs: http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=166.0;attach=249  The pathological evidence strongly suggests the casing found on the landing pertains to NB's elbow or shoulder gsw.

[Holly Goodhead]

I thought you once gave it a good review?

https://www.waterstones.com/books/reviews/isbn/9781447285755#review-70301

Yes I stand by my review.  The book brings together all written testimony, interviews etc into an orderly narrative and that is it.  My criticism is of her scenario.

I believe another book will be launched challenging the forensic evidence.  And it will most definitely not be penned by Ms Goodhead!  It's as much as I can do to pen a post!