Possible movements during night of Family on 6/7th August in WHF ??

[puglove]

The image I have of SC in the kitchen with NB is based on CC's mother's WS:

"She [SC] went into a torrent of words saying she was hearing voices from God, and more words to this effect."

"When I arrived Sheila said that she was hearing voices, sometimes from God.  She said that she had to put the world to right, and spoke rapidly about many things that were troubling her.  She was very hyper-active."

"The Doctor wanted to give Sheila an injection but she wouldn't allow it so instead he prescribed pills."

I see SC in possession of the gun talking along the lines of the above which NB may have referred to as "crazy".  Then in the same way that SC wouldn't allow the Dr to inject her I see her being unwilling to hand over the rifle to NB.

IF (and it's a ridiculous if) Sheila was downstairs holding a loaded gun, and looking a bit mental, when would Ralph have let her get on with it, and waste valuable moments calling a knackered Jeremy with the vague hope that he'd pick up?

[adam]

Senior Scientific Officer - Malcolm Fletcher

Ballistics expert Malcolm Fletcher believes that Jeremy fired eight shots into his parents first, and that Nevill escaped to try and raise the alarm using the telephone downstairs, while Jeremy forced Sheila into the master bedroom, where he shot her once; after killing Nevill, he returned to fire the fatal shots at June, and another at Sheila before expending the remaining bullets on Nicholas and Daniel. 

Even MF's reconstruction is at odds with the pathological evidence ie the two GSW's SC sustained happened within seconds: http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=732

It seems to me crazy to suggest JB would allow NB out of his sight. 

I stand by what I've said for a long time: lack of joined up thinking from the relevant experts and didn't have enough experience to deal with a SoC involving multiple shootings.  Other than Hungerford, Dunblane and Lake District  (Derrick Bird) I can't think of any other multiple shootings in UK?

I agree Bamber would not allow Neville downstairs alone. It would give Neville the chance to either get outside, arm himself or call 999.

The kitchen fight suggests an instant fight straight after both arrived in the kitchen simultaneously. Neville was not armed or near an exit. We also both agree he never telephoned the police.

[Holly Goodhead]

Nope, that doesn't work for early August. Sheila was given three slow-release Haldol tranquiliser injections since CC's mother saw her 4 - 6 weeks before Easter (7th. April 1985). The first on leaving hospital - 29th March, the second - 2nd May and the third - 11th July. Primarily because she had difficulty popping pills regularly.

Her condition was controlled, over-controlled in fact, so much so that it was "flattening" her and making her lithargic, which is why her last dose was halved to 100mg. You only have to read what SC's bestie, Tora Tomkinson, thought about her weakness a week before the farm visit. Quiet on the journey from London the previous Sunday, subdued in the telephone chat with Junes's sister and according to Jeremy Bamber himself, saying very little in the conversation around the kitchen table on Wednesday night. Add depression into the mix and there is no way Sheila would have summoned up the strength and vindictivness to do what you believe she did. More likely that she was hitting the hay rather than chatting with her dad in the kitchen at 3:15am too.

My understanding is that medication helps stabilise sufferers.  I don't think it's possible to eradicate schizophrenia and paranoia by medication?  If it was I don't understand the following witness statements.  SC was being injected fortnightly by her GP and as far as I'm aware there's no record of her missing any appointments?  If SC was responsible I don't think vindictiveness comes into it. 

Dr Ferguson:

"....inferring a poor outlook".

"Sheila's illness had a tendency to relapse without external influences.

"In hindsight I believe that SC would have relapsed into a state of acute psychosis, probably having a firmly held belief or delusion involving concepts of good and evil, and certainly paranoid possibly involving her mother".

CC:

"Whilst Sheila was in hospital I managed to see Dr Ferguson who informed me that Sheila was psychotic and had schizophrenia.  He informed me that she would always have this illness at more frequent intervals".

I should also point out that Dr Ferguson made it clear in his WS and to CC (as per his WS) and no doubt to the Bambers that in his opinion SC was not a danger to herself or others. 

With regard to whether SC was over sedated I haven't seen her medical records about her concerns that her dose was too high to know why she thought this eg physical, mental or both.  Is it possible to determine by the level measured in a person's system whether or not they are over sedated to the extent it is having an adverse affect mentally or physically or both?  The autopsy and toxicology tests show the level of prescribed drugs in her system:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=207.0;attach=750

[Holly Goodhead]

IF (and it's a ridiculous if) Sheila was downstairs holding a loaded gun, and looking a bit mental, when would Ralph have let her get on with it, and waste valuable moments calling a knackered Jeremy with the vague hope that he'd pick up?

There's no problem whatsoever with criticising any material here or elsewhere providing it doesn't:

- break any UKJF rules
- contain any personally identifiable information (pii) over and above that which individuals choose to make public
- amount to online bullying
- break any laws

The posts in question contained pii about an individual who chooses to use an online user name and were therefore removed.

I share your views puglove about some of the comments made elsewhere about June.  Eg suggesting June had a direct hand in any of the murders is plainly absurd.  Unfortunately that's what comes from a very poorly managed forum and posters who have an equally poor understanding of the facts of the case.  I can only attempt to manage what goes on here as fairly as possible and try and find the right balance between free speech and respect for the law which has found JB guilty, the victims, prosecution witnesses, the police and others involved.

I'm always receptive to feedback on the forum or via pm.   

I can see how some, many, and probably the jury were/are unable to envisage NB phoning JB and/or allowing SC  to slope off with a firearm etc and yet the soc seems to suggest this is what happened by way of blood staining to the carpets (and lack of), casings, trajectories etc. 

[Holly Goodhead]

I agree Bamber would not allow Neville downstairs alone. It would give Neville the chance to either get outside, arm himself or call 999.

The kitchen fight suggests an instant fight straight after both arrived in the kitchen simultaneously. Neville was not armed or near an exit. We also both agree he never telephoned the police.

Yes if JB was responsible he would be unaware NB's lip and jaw shots resulted in him being unable to engage in purposeful talk so would want to prevent NB from reaching and potentially using the kitchen phone at all costs.

If "Sheila's going crazy she's got the gun" this could have resulted in the rifle being swung around and damaging the lampshade etc before any shots were fired.  Otherwise yes I believe the perp and NB arrived in the kitchen simultaneously and that's when crockery and the lampshade were broken and furniture moved etc. 

[Myster]

I see you're leading them all astray on IA with your conspiracy theories.

It was Sheila's blood in the moderator, Holls.  Bamber wiped the rest off the outside using some washing-up liquid (that's why it was sticky) but not thoroughly enough (hence the speck in the opening), and completely ignored the inside because he thought no-one would disassemble and examine it that closely, or even discover it in the gun cupboard... until he'd got his hands on the keys to WHF when he could give it a more thorough going over.

He probably thought that if he took it home or ditched it, the police would start asking tricky questions about where it had disappeared to, when they discovered one existed and had been bought by NB to fit on the rifle.

[Holly Goodhead]

I see you're leading them all astray on IA with your conspiracy theories.

It was Sheila's blood in the moderator, Holls.  Bamber wiped the rest off the outside using some washing-up liquid (that's why it was sticky) but not thoroughly enough (hence the speck in the opening), and completely ignored the inside because he thought no-one would disassemble and examine it that closely, or even discover it in the gun cupboard... until he'd got his hands on the keys to WHF when he could give it a more thorough going over.

He probably thought that if he took it home or ditched it, the police would start asking tricky questions about where it had disappeared to, when they discovered one existed and had been bought by NB to fit on the rifle.

Washing-up liquid?  That's new to me.  Was it Fairy by any chance?  If JB was unsure about how he left things why did he allow the relatives to take over?  He allowed the police to hand over the keys to the rellies and for them to have free rein.

It's not possible to confirm one way or another whether the blood flake supposedly found in the silencer originated from SC's blood.  It's only possible to say it matched SC's blood by way of the antigen, 1 x protein and 2 enzymes.  Statistically 5.43  members of this forum will share those groupings.  Even if the blood supposedly found in the silencer matched SC's it wouldn't prove how it came to be there.

Does any photographic evidence exist showing the inside of the silencer with blood staining?  I haven't even seen a diagram of blood staining to the inside.

I think my posts on IA are impartial and factual?!  Why don't you call by?  I'm sure AL would be pleased to see you!  It's interesting to exchange views with others from outside UK.  Especially US citizens who have a different take on firearms.   

[Myster]

Washing-up liquid?  That's new to me.  Was it Fairy by any chance?  If JB was unsure about how he left things why did he allow the relatives to take over?  He allowed the police to hand over the keys to the rellies and for them to have free rein.

It's not possible to confirm one way or another whether the blood flake supposedly found in the silencer originated from SC's blood.  It's only possible to say it matched SC's blood by way of the antigen, 1 x protein and 2 enzymes.  Statistically 5.43  members of this forum will share those groupings.  Even if the blood supposedly found in the silencer matched SC's it wouldn't prove how it came to be there.

Does any photographic evidence exist showing the inside of the silencer with blood staining?  I haven't even seen a diagram of blood staining to the inside.

I think my posts on IA are impartial and factual?!  Why don't you call by?  I'm sure AL would be pleased to see you!  It's interesting to exchange views with others from outside UK.  Especially US citizens who have a different take on firearms.

Well it was sticky with something and moderators are usually dry, unless lightly oiled to stop rust.  Maybe it was seized on the rifle and hard to undo, so JB thought washing-up liquid as the nearest thing to hand would release it.

He pretended that he was scared to go back in, until AE held his hand for a while... after which he was back to his normal self; questioning where his dad's wallet and money had gone, giving himself a pay rise and holidaying on the farm account.

There'll be many, many photos and drawings which we haven't seen, nor are ever likely to.

I've not got the time to contribute to IA and it's difficult finding enough to dip in here these days, going over the case endlessly.  Much of the same has already been discussed there anyway, bar esoteric and irrelevant Bayesian statistics.  You're fighting for his release and therefore keen to influence others from wherever - I'm content that the police got the right man and the jury agreed.

[John]

I think it is absurd to suggest that June got up and walked around the master bedroom after being initially shot in bed, there's certainly no evidence to support such a contention.  It is far more likely she got up after being shot in bed and collapsed on the floor only to be shot again multiple times when her assailant realised she wasnt' dead.  Jeremy Bamber couldn't take the risk of leaving anyone alive in case they identified him to the police, thus the overkill nature of the murders.

[rotti]

I think it is absurd to suggest that June got up and walked around the master bedroom after being initially shot in bed, there's certainly no evidence to support such a contention.  It is far more likely she got up after being shot in bed and collapsed on the floor only to be shot again multiple times when her assailant realised she wasnt' dead.  Jeremy Bamber couldn't take the risk of leaving anyone alive in case they identified him to the police, thus the overkill nature of the murders.

good point john.was the blood found leading to sheilas body and around it  tested

[Myster]

IIRC, the blood spots on carpet samples 10 & 11 were identified as June's, so she must have walked around the end of the bed to Nevill's side and back again for a short period before collapsing in the doorway. Also evidenced by the large amount of staining from blood which ran down the front of her nightdress.

[rotti]

IIRC, the blood spots on carpet samples 10 & 11 were identified as June's, so she must have walked around the end of the bed to Nevill's side and back again for a short period before collapsing in the doorway. Also evidenced by the large amount of staining from blood which ran down the front of her nightdress.

was there any of neville's blood in that room myster

[Myster]

was there any of neville's blood in that room myster

None that I'm aware of, but the police burned the carpet and some of the bedding before any more stains could be analyzed. The bedroom carpet was peppered with blood spots, so it was a missed opportunity to pinpoint exactly where Nevill was shot.

[rotti]

None that I'm aware of, but the police burned the carpet and some of the bedding before any more stains could be analyzed. The bedroom carpet was peppered with blood spots, so it was a missed opportunity to pinpoint exactly where Nevill was shot.

yes i agree.there was loads of blood there and we still arent sure where neville received his first 4 shots

[scipio_usmc]

yes i agree.there was loads of blood there and we still arent sure where neville received his first 4 shots

The spent casings tell us where the gun was aimed- at Nevill's side of the bed.  He had to be either lying down or sitting on his side of the bed when he suffered at least 3 of those 4 wounds based on the trajectory/location of the wounds. He had his left profile to the killer for all 4 and for at least 3 he was at a lower elevation than the killer.  The killer was standing while he was sitting/lying down or the killer was standing on the chair. Since the killer standing on the chair is unlikely that means in all likelihood Nevill was sitting/lying down. The 4th shot potentially could have been delivered while he was standing so he might have gotten up by the time but still had his left profile to the killer.