Are the balconies at OC a risk to toddlers?

[stephen25000]

If the owner and the operators knew that the accommodation was not child safe yet they let it to families with young children then they are liable regardless of warning stickers on windows.

Perhaps that should include warning stickers to parents, not to leave children in potentially dangerous situations.

[misty]

If the owner and the operators knew that the accommodation was not child safe yet they let it to families with young children then they are liable regardless of warning stickers on windows.

I totally agree. Unless the sliding door is fitted with a child safety latch then a warning sticker is next to useless, especially on the upper floors. Young children don't cease wandering when their parents are sleeping.

[jassi]

Child-proof locks not much use if you then go and leave the door open.

Can this type of door be locked with a key from the inside?

[Robittybob1]

If the owner and the operators knew that the accommodation was not child safe yet they let it to families with young children then they are liable regardless of warning stickers on windows.

That is surprising and if it was it would be a worry for their business then wouldn't it, for what would they need to do ?  What would the need to do to keep the mediterranean feel yet make the balconies child safe?  No wonder the Head of building services is hanging around.
I made a mistake in a previous post "So when a kid has a nightmare and goes sleepwalking should the balconies be constructed so that even a dreaming kid can climb over them?" Should have been:
"So when a kid has a nightmare and goes sleepwalking should the balconies be constructed so that even a dreaming kid can NOT climb over them?"

[G-Unit]

I wonder how high it is from the top of the railings to the bottom of those steps or to that garden?

After falling from the balcony Brad dropped 10ft onto a protruding tiled roof and died on the way to hospital in Cagliari, Sardinia's capital.
The resort, which is on a spectacular stretch of Sardinia overlooking bays and beaches, maintains that the balcony conformed with both British and Italian safety regulations.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/6043646/Toddler-fell-to-death-through-gap-in-balcony-railings-claim-family.html

The wall below the railings could be seen as a step up.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/aug/18/balcony-brad-kremer-fall-sardinia

In the UK an external balustrade should be 1 meter from datum (where you stand)

[Robittybob1]

I wonder how high it is from the top of the railings to the bottom of those steps or to that garden?

After falling from the balcony Brad dropped 10ft onto a protruding tiled roof and died on the way to hospital in Cagliari, Sardinia's capital.
The resort, which is on a spectacular stretch of Sardinia overlooking bays and beaches, maintains that the balcony conformed with both British and Italian safety regulations.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/6043646/Toddler-fell-to-death-through-gap-in-balcony-railings-claim-family.html

The wall below the railings could be seen as a step up.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/aug/18/balcony-brad-kremer-fall-sardinia

In the UK an external balustrade should be 1 meter from datum (where you stand)

That is very pertinent to the the MM case.  This type of accident could have happened anywhere in the complex but since G4 and G5  block look identical on the exterior in particular block G4.  Then if the parents of an injured kid seek medical assistance they could easily involve the English doctors to check whether the child is dead or alive.
it is possible OC to have responded in a similar way if it had been disclosed.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/6043646/Toddler-fell-to-death-through-gap-in-balcony-railings-claim-family.html

The tour company, Sardatur Holidays, said the hotel complied with health and safety requirements but it had appointed an independent consultant to make further checks.
A spokesman said: "The balcony in question is protected by a wall and metal railing above and whilst it is unclear at the current time how the child fell the Carabinieri are currently treating the matter as a tragic accident.
"We would like to reassure all passengers both currently staying at the hotel and those due to travel
that the hotel complies with all appropriate building and local laws and that all heath and safety checks are up to date."

[mercury]

Child-proof locks not much use if you then go and leave the door open.

Can this type of door be locked with a key from the inside?

if you leave the doors open but assuming your kids will sleep through then youre taking a risk IMO and if your kids escape and are stolen from the street whose fault is it???
But the mccanns say they left the doors open for their kids benefit ie they wouldnt be woken up by them coming in the front
So they took the decision that its better to not wake them when checking but leave the  at risk of escaping, bizarre, as always

[Robittybob1]

if you leave the doors open but assuming your kids will sleep through then youre taking a risk IMO and if your kids escape and are stolen from the street whose fault is it???

So would someone tell the McCanns this prior to an untoward event occurring?  If you had been there would you have told Gerry he was being a fool?

[sadie]

1100 mm as per the code. There is no valid reason reason to think otherwise. Unless you believe that internal components were used in error in which case it would be 950mm but you or Bridget would need a valid reason to think that.
I'll make it easy: The average human being is crap at estimating mass distance and time so
screw what Bridget O'Donnell thought about the balcony/balustrade height. For her opinion to count she would need to know how high it was as measured rather than viewed and guessed, added to a knowledge of Eurocodes allied to the construction industry. Had she that knowledge I am sure she would have said "the balustrades were below the height recommended by the the code" rather than the woolly remarks attributed to her.
The chain from start to finish on the building project will include but not be limited to:
Client;architect;structural engineering consultant;local planning officer;main contractor;balustrade subcontractor;building inspectors. I would imagine balustrades without the relevant code would have been noticed by most of those with remedial works carried out as a result.
Unless of course we are expected to believe there was a vast conspiracy theory around a p**s balling bit of hand rail ?

The thing that worries me more than the height, which seems pretty OK, is the gap between each vertical of the railings.  There are strict Laws about that too.  A child must not be able to get his head stuck in the gap, yet they must be narrow enough to keep the child in.

I think the photo supposedly from the Paynes apartment [Btw, I dont think that is Fiona] gives a false impression, because the camera is held high and it seems the person is standing well away from the railings.  It is difficult to comprehend  without a trained eye, but Alice and some others will understand the perspective causing this false impression

The height of 1.1 metres was specified so that an adult leaning over the balcony would not be top heavy and fall over accidentally.  I used to be tall but now i have shrunk, I am medium height and 1.1 metres (over 3'6") comes up well above my waist on to my chest.  It would take a man of almost 7' to accidentally topple over railings that height.

Without the aid of the mini wall underneath, no 3 - 4 year old girl would be able to scale the railings ... and I am very doubtful if she would be able to scale it even using that.


The danger imo, is the rather wide gaps between the railings .... but I am not there to measure them, so I cant be sure.


What we must bear in mind is the date that these apartments were built and the Laws at that time.  They might have been different then.

[mercury]

The thing that worries me more than the height, which seems pretty OK, is the gap between each vertical of the railings.  There are strict Laws about that too.  A child must not be able to get his head stuck in the gap, yet they must be narrow enough to keep the child in.

I think the photo supposedly from the Paynes apartment [Btw, I dont think that is Fiona] gives a false impression, because the camera is held high and it seems the person is standing well away from the railings.  It is difficult to comprehend  without a trained eye, but Alice and some others will understand the perspective causing this false impression

The height of 1.1 metres was specified so that an adult leaning over the balcony would not be top heavy and fall over accidentally.  I used to be tall but now i have shrunk, I am medium height and 1.1 metres (over 3'6") comes up well above my waist on to my chest.  It would take a man of almost 7' to accidentally topple over railings that height.

Without the aid of the mini wall underneath, no 3 - 4 year old girl would be able to scale the railings ... and I am very doubtful if she would be able to scale it even using that.


The danger imo, is the rather wide gaps between the railings .... but I am not there to measure them, so I cant be sure.


What we must bear in mind is the date that these apartments were built and the Laws at that time.  They might have been different then.

Stop changing the subject sadie the kids shouldnt even had been given the chance to potentially a) get out and b) climb over or through anything that was dangerous...it wasnt OC at fault here if anything like this happened but the potential was there

[sadie]

Stop changing the subject sadie the kids shouldnt even had been given the chance to potentially a) get out and b) climb over or through anything that was dangerous...it wasnt OC at fault here if anything like this happened but the potential was there

You probably haven't noticed but I have been away for a time.  I am working my way thru the thread and responding to things as I reach them.  I am responding to Alice ... not to you.

The patio balcony was IN sight of the Tapas group. It was illuminated by the street lamp immediately opposite.  Had Madeleine been there, her first thought would have been to shout to her Mum and Dad , who were only about 50 metres away. 

Madeleine has a mighty voice as we have seen in home videos and parents can pick out the sound of THEIR childs voice against any other noises.

Nah, she didn't go over the rail, thru it, or down the steps.  Almost for certain she was carried out thru the front door.

[mercury]

All speculation
You dont know what thise kids would have done
And there is no way the mccans looked at their flat all night, why would they?!!!!

[misty]

I wonder how high it is from the top of the railings to the bottom of those steps or to that garden?

After falling from the balcony Brad dropped 10ft onto a protruding tiled roof and died on the way to hospital in Cagliari, Sardinia's capital.
The resort, which is on a spectacular stretch of Sardinia overlooking bays and beaches, maintains that the balcony conformed with both British and Italian safety regulations.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/6043646/Toddler-fell-to-death-through-gap-in-balcony-railings-claim-family.html

The wall below the railings could be seen as a step up.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/aug/18/balcony-brad-kremer-fall-sardinia

In the UK an external balustrade should be 1 meter from datum (where you stand)

There is no EU directive regarding heights of balconies & balustrades. It is up to each country to issue their own law.

[Brietta]

Balconies please.

[mercury]

Balconies please.

Ok do you have any idea why the mccanns would take the risk  leaving their toddlers alone at night whilst they went out to dine? The risk being them going out on the balcony, ta

Would YOU do that?
would  YOU leave your other babies alone! After being convinced your first born was abducted!?!!
I bet you would NOT