Author Topic: What could have gone wrong with the sniffer dog searches in the first 15 days?  (Read 6083 times)

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Offline Robittybob1

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm#p13p3517
All those dogs and people and very little results, what could have gone wrong?

Is this the entire Knowledge  of the tracker dogs in the file? http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm#p13p3517
Quote
3517 to 3524 Report of Technical/Scientific Search and Rescue Group


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm
Quote
3491 Cover letter re: searches in Praia da Luz
3492 to 3516 Report of police activity with appendices

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2858.msg98520#msg98520 gives a good analysis on the order of the police arriving. (Pegasus)

Some debate whether they had the right type of dogs http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1279.msg353549#msg353549.

Interesting quote:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6311.msg256169#msg256169

More relevant files "825 to 828 Service information re: GNR sniffer dog searches"
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/INFORMATION-SERVICE.htm

"02-Processos Vol II Page 514-515 Map of Ocean Club resort"
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MAPS_PJ.htm#p3p829
« Last Edit: September 10, 2016, 09:57:52 AM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline John

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm#p13p3517
All those dogs and people and very little results, what could have gone wrong?

Results were obtained where the dogs found the target scent. Please explain what went wrong?
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Brietta

Search and Rescue
These amazing dogs are trained to detect the scent of missing people in debris, hazardous weather, wilderness and even underwater. Their amazing sense of smell can detect human scent through air and ground, living and dead.


Why is it assumed that something "went wrong" because the SAR dogs used by the Portuguese police didn't find any trace of Madeleine?  There is no guarantee that the mere deployment of dogs will ensure a 100% success rate at any time whatever the circumstances.

I believe that in the first few days after Madeleine's disappearance Eddie and Keela's services were offered and refused.
I doubt if even they would have been capable of finding something which simply wasn't there to be found ... hmmm, maybe I should rephrase that in light of ill informed supposition of what is and what's indicative.
                                                                                                                         &%+((£
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Robittybob1

Results were obtained where the dogs found the target scent. Please explain what went wrong?
John raised an issue on the other thread discussing these tracker dogs http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=post;quote=352885;topic=1279.180;last_msg=352885
Quote
Problem being she walked around the block every day so old scent can be confused with new scent.

In the other thread there were questions about whether there could be more than one person's scent on the items used to educate the dogs.  I.e. if they used a towel how certain can they be they grabbed the right towel and did anyone else use that towel at any other time?
First problem 1. New scent trails can be confused with old scent trails.
Second problem 2.  Cross contamination of the scent source to follow. Was it Madeleine they were following?
« Last Edit: September 06, 2016, 07:04:51 PM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline Robittybob1

Are there other sources of information about the tracker dogs in the file other than http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm#p13p3517 ? 
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Offline G-Unit

John raised an issue on the other thread discussing these tracker dogs http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=post;quote=352885;topic=1279.180;last_msg=352885
In the thread in the OP there were questions about whether there could be more than one person's scent on the items used to educate the dogs.  I.e. if they used a towel how certain can they be they grabbed the right towel and did anyone else use that towel at any other time?
First problem 1. New scent trails can be confused with old scent trails.
Second problem 2.  Cross contamination of the scent source to follow. Was it Madeleine they were following?

Firstly, there is confusion about the type of dogs used. S & R dogs can be air scent dogs who can find people in a large open area or a disaster. They search for people in general. They can also be ground scenting dogs, which are tracker dogs and they follow a specific person after sniffing something with the person's scent on it. The dogs used to follow Madeleine were tracker dogs.
http://www.ussartf.org/dogs_search_rescue.htm

I was under the impression that Madeleine went to the left out of the front door just once, when she and the twins ran away;

That, between Monday and Wednesday, not knowing the precise date, when they left the residence by the main door, to place the children in the respective creches, MADELEINE left [went] running to the left to the extreme opposite of the residential blocks where they were lodged, playing with the twins. That they had gone down to the furthest point away from those blocks, not knowing exactly how, the three children got into the gardens at the rear [of the blocks]. Then they followed the inside corridor [pathway] at the rear, next to the hedges [fences] up to the street that led to the secondary reception.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm

The normal route was either out of the front door turn right or out of the patio door and down the steps.

There is some disagreement about what was given to the dog handler;

Officer Silva, who handled S & R dog Timmy said;

They gave the dogs a Turkish bath towel which was supposedly used by the child in question
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_SILVA.htm

He didn't let his dog sniff the towel though, it was Officer Fernandes with Rex and Zarus from the tracking team, who tracked round Block 5, as below;

 Major Antonio Dias de Matos in his search report dated Dec 2017 said;

At about 23.00 the extra teams that had been requested for reinforcement arrived (Officer Rosa with Oscar and Officer Martins with Fusco, both from the search and rescue unit and Officer Fernandes with Rex and Zarus from the tracking team).

After the officers had been updated about facts relating to the disappearance, they tried to reconstruct the route the girl might have taken with the two tracker dogs. For this purpose the dogs were given a blanket to sniff, provided by the parents, which had been used by Madeleine.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm

Fernandes said;

 His role was to use the dogs' skills by allowing them to sniff a towel which had supposedly been used by the minor in question.

That after the dogs were given this scent from the towel and near apartment 5A of block 5, the first sniffer dog headed to the door of that apartment. Immediately afterward, he turned to block 5, using a circumvented route to block 5, and came to the road between this block and the leisure area of the resort (pools, restaurant, etc), and turned to the left, or around the referred to apartment and headed to the main road.

Taking into account the aforementioned result, he states that it can be confirmed with a certain degree of certainty that the missing minor passed that location, on the day of the events or before that date.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PEDRO_ESTEVES.htm

Kate said;

I fetched the pink princess blanket she took to bed with her every night, which they took, and some of her clothes, which they didn’t
[Madeleine]

So there are two dog handlers saying they used a towel, contradicted by the Major and Kate who said it was a blanket. The dog handlers made their statements on 9th May. Kate and the Major a long time after the event. Take your pick.

The route;









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Offline sadie

Search and Rescue
These amazing dogs are trained to detect the scent of missing people in debris, hazardous weather, wilderness and even underwater. Their amazing sense of smell can detect human scent through air and ground, living and dead.


Why is it assumed that something "went wrong" because the SAR dogs used by the Portuguese police didn't find any trace of Madeleine?  There is no guarantee that the mere deployment of dogs will ensure a 100% success rate at any time whatever the circumstances.

I believe that in the first few days after Madeleine's disappearance Eddie and Keela's services were offered and refused.
I doubt if even they would have been capable of finding something which simply wasn't there to be found ... hmmm, maybe I should rephrase that in light of ill informed supposition of what is and what's indicative.
                                                                                                                         &%+((£
It was a gusty night and if Madeleine was abducted she would have been carried.  The dogs deployed followed tracks on the ground.  Seems to me that it is a NO brainer to expect her scent to have been followed

In any case any scent from her (up in the air) would have rapidly been dispersed by the gusty wind.

Offline G-Unit

It was a gusty night and if Madeleine was abducted she would have been carried.  The dogs deployed followed tracks on the ground.  Seems to me that it is a NO brainer to expect her scent to have been followed

In any case any scent from her (up in the air) would have rapidly been dispersed by the gusty wind.

Taking into account the aforementioned result, he states that it can be confirmed with a certain degree of certainty that the missing minor passed that location, on the day of the events or before that date. This situation can be explained by the configuration/layout of the area. That space is reduced and flanked by walls. This helps to conserve scents that may otherwise be affected by winds, etc.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PEDRO_ESTEVES.htm
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Offline Robittybob1

Thanks for that help.  I'll some time to read up on it and get back to you both and the forum.
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Offline sadie

Taking into account the aforementioned result, he states that it can be confirmed with a certain degree of certainty that the missing minor passed that location, on the day of the events or before that date. This situation can be explained by the configuration/layout of the area. That space is reduced and flanked by walls. This helps to conserve scents that may otherwise be affected by winds, etc.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PEDRO_ESTEVES.htm

This might be true in the walled passageway in front of 5A but between block 5 and block 4, the reverse is true.  With big masses of buildings close together a wind tunnel effect ensues.  I guess that is because the wind beating on the long expanse of wall has to go somewhere.  Much will go over the top but also some will be channeled around the ends of the building.  As the front of block 5 is curved, that will encourage the wind to pass by the ends of the block creating a wind tunnel effect between block 5 and block 4, so it will blow the scent away.

But I think what John is saying is far more important.  Madeleine had walked that circuitous route.  The scent from her feet would be stronger than any air borne blown away scents.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360132311002575

Offline Robittybob1

This might be true in the walled passageway in front of 5A but between block 5 and block 4, the reverse is true.  With big masses of buildings close together a wind tunnel effect ensues.  I guess that is because the wind beating on the long expanse of wall has to go somewhere.  Much will go over the top but also some will be channeled around the ends of the building.  As the front of block 5 is curved, that will encourage the wind to pass by the ends of the block creating a wind tunnel effect between block 5 and block 4, so it will blow the scent away.

But I think what John is saying is far more important.  Madeleine had walked that circuitous route.  The scent from her feet would be stronger than any air borne blown away scents.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360132311002575
I've lost the reference just ATM but is there evidence that Madeleine had walked between the two apartment blocks?
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Offline mercury

I've lost the reference just ATM but is there evidence that Madeleine had walked between the two apartment blocks?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7562.msg352934#msg352934

on your  own thread

Oh, this one

Offline Robittybob1

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7562.msg352934#msg352934

on your  own thread

Oh, this one
I've got another big project on the go so I might seem a little distracted at the moment but thanks again for bringing me back into order.  I'll be back into it later.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2016, 04:43:42 AM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline G-Unit

This might be true in the walled passageway in front of 5A but between block 5 and block 4, the reverse is true.  With big masses of buildings close together a wind tunnel effect ensues.  I guess that is because the wind beating on the long expanse of wall has to go somewhere.  Much will go over the top but also some will be channeled around the ends of the building.  As the front of block 5 is curved, that will encourage the wind to pass by the ends of the block creating a wind tunnel effect between block 5 and block 4, so it will blow the scent away.

But I think what John is saying is far more important.  Madeleine had walked that circuitous route.  The scent from her feet would be stronger than any air borne blown away scents.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360132311002575

Madeleine didn't walk that route regularly in my opinion. I can't see why she would. Also Gerry wouldn't have mentioned the one occasion when she ran away in that direction if she was running ahead on a normal route.

Beginning to follow the track using Rex, from the door of apartment 5 A (the place where the girl had been sleeping) he would always head in the direction of Block 4, leaving block 5 the dog would turn to the left, pass by a metal access door to a path existing between the apartments blocks to the leisure area (restaurant, pool and playground).
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm

It would depend on the wind direction and strength, because all the paths had walls and the one between the blocks was reasonably narrow. I can't see any pronounced curve on Block 5.

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Offline slartibartfast

Madeleine didn't walk that route regularly in my opinion. I can't see why she would. Also Gerry wouldn't have mentioned the one occasion when she ran away in that direction if she was running ahead on a normal route.

Beginning to follow the track using Rex, from the door of apartment 5 A (the place where the girl had been sleeping) he would always head in the direction of Block 4, leaving block 5 the dog would turn to the left, pass by a metal access door to a path existing between the apartments blocks to the leisure area (restaurant, pool and playground).
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm

It would depend on the wind direction and strength, because all the paths had walls and the one between the blocks was reasonably narrow. I can't see any pronounced curve on Block 5.

So is everyone happy that these were tracking dogs that were following Madeleine's scent?
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.