What should the PJ have done differently?

[ferryman]

Ignorance is bliss.

Who is to blame for the canard that Eddie 'scented death' in the Renault Scenic?

I certainly don't blame Eddie.

Who is to blame for the canard that Eddie 'scented death' on Kate's clothes?

I certainly don't blame Eddie.

Who is to blame for the canard that Eddie 'scented death' (anywhere at all)?

Who is to blame for the fact that Eddie was deployed longer in apartment 5a than all the other apartments combined?

I certainly don't blame Eddie ....

[ShiningInLuz]

Amaral claims in his book (or is it an interview, I lose track; an interview, I think) El Mundo? that he considered the McCanns suspects from the outset (of the investigation).

He also claims (in his book) that the vehicle was used to drive Madeleine somewhere (dead) in the Renault Scenic.

Given Amaral's (professed) suspicions it seems reasonable that he would have (wanted to) place the McCanns under intense surveillance and scrutiny from the outset.

Wouldn't it?

And that he would have wanted the car traced once they'd hired it.

I believe in his book Amaral states that the McCanns were indeed suspects from the beginning.  It is stated in the sense that parents of a mysteriously-vanished child should always be scrutinised by the police.  Neither in words nor deeds can I find any evidence that Amaral or his team focussed solely on the McCanns from early in the investigation.  Indeed the PJ Files are stuffed with instances which make it clear this was not what happened.

To track the car we are into James Bond territory, with the car either bugged to follow its movements, or special agents used to do the same manually.

I don't know about an El Mundo interview, but judging by some of the phone traffic analysis, the PJ did become interested in the movements of elements of the T9.  To get their hands on phone records, they had to go through the appropriate Portuguese legal procedure.

[ferryman]

I believe in his book Amaral states that the McCanns were indeed suspects from the beginning.  It is stated in the sense that parents of a mysteriously-vanished child should always be scrutinised by the police.  Neither in words nor deeds can I find any evidence that Amaral or his team focussed solely on the McCanns from early in the investigation.  Indeed the PJ Files are stuffed with instances which make it clear this was not what happened.

To track the car we are into James Bond territory, with the car either bugged to follow its movements, or special agents used to do the same manually.

I don't know about an El Mundo interview, but judging by some of the phone traffic analysis, the PJ did become interested in the movements of elements of the T9.  To get their hands on phone records, they had to go through the appropriate Portuguese legal procedure.

I think the evidence points to Kate and Gerry being officially suspected on the back of the dog-reactions.

I'm not aware of anything that points to suspicion (of the parents) before that?

[ferryman]

You posted the bolded bit in reply to mercury;

quote from: mercury on September 25, 2016, 09:57:45 PM
I bet he was a better policeman than you think you are, hes had decades of experience,

Lol

And besides you cant peove him wrong, even if he was, so.....

i can prove he was pathetic...we all understand the dogs alerts were of no evidential reliability but he didnt...thats proof

I asked you for a cite and mercury provided one which showed you were wrong;

Quote from: G-Unit on September 25, 2016, 10:27:07 PM
Do you have a cite please?
GA talking about dog alerts:
Chap 16

These conclusions do not, for the moment, constitute proof. If the laboratory results are positive, and only in that case, we will have our proof.
[/u]
So davel is wrong

I then mentioned untrue rumours, and still haven't seen a cite from you to back up your assertion.

But then, according to Amaral, the FSS produced two reports (rot!)

According to Amaral the "first" report (there was no "first" report!) contradicted the "second" (there was no "second" report, either).

According to Amaral, "death-scent" was detected everywhere (we've been through all that, there was no "death-scent).

According to Amaral, the Prosecutors "changed their minds"

Nothing documented suggested they did.

You know ....

[Alfie]

You posted the bolded bit in reply to mercury;

quote from: mercury on September 25, 2016, 09:57:45 PM
I bet he was a better policeman than you think you are, hes had decades of experience,

Lol

And besides you cant peove him wrong, even if he was, so.....

i can prove he was pathetic...we all understand the dogs alerts were of no evidential reliability but he didnt...thats proof

I asked you for a cite and mercury provided one which showed you were wrong;

Quote from: G-Unit on September 25, 2016, 10:27:07 PM
Do you have a cite please?
GA talking about dog alerts:
Chap 16

These conclusions do not, for the moment, constitute proof. If the laboratory results are positive, and only in that case, we will have our proof.

So davel is wrong

I then mentioned untrue rumours, and still haven't seen a cite from you to back up your assertion.

It's the sentence about the positive lab results which prove he didn't know what he was talking about.  How does a positive DNA match to Madeleine confirm that the dogs correctly alerted to her dead body?

[Robittybob1]

It's the sentence about the positive lab results which prove he didn't know what he was talking about.  How does a positive DNA match to Madeleine confirm that the dogs correctly alerted to her dead body?

That would depend on how little DNA needs to be present to get a positive test.  Why would Madeleine's DNA be in the hire car?

[Mr Gray]

That would depend on how little DNA needs to be present to get a positive test.  Why would Madeleine's DNA be in the hire car?

if there were any of maddies clothes in the hire car then it would be possible her dna would be there to

[Alfie]

That would depend on how little DNA needs to be present to get a positive test.  Why would Madeleine's DNA be in the hire car?

transferral.

[ferryman]

if there were any of maddies clothes in the hire car then it would be possible her dna would be there to

Secondary transfer of Madeleine's DNA (certainly) but also the fact of 4 of Madeleine's direct blood-relatives (her parents and twin-siblings) very likely having contributed to the mix of DNA recovered from the boot would certainly contribute to the explanation of why there were similarities (in the mix) to the profile of Madeleine's.

[carlymichelle]

all human beings have  their own DNA    even identical twins dont have the same  DNA

[ferryman]

all human beings have  their own DNA    even identical twins dont have the same  DNA

That's not quite the point, though.

Carana is the expert on this, but there is a (total) pool of markers that make up the dna profiles of (every person alive) and it is the mix of individual markers (in a particular profile) that is individual and unique to a given person.  Even complete strangers are likely to have markers the same (as each other) in their own individual and unique profiles.

Bring together (directly related) family members and the likelihood of a (greater number) of similarities in individual profiles increases.

[Robittybob1]

all human beings have  their own DNA    even identical twins dont have the same  DNA

But they would still give the same result on the Low Copy Number DNA analysis.

[Benice]

May I ask how you think covert surveillance would have been implemented, in practical terms?

Presumably with multiple teams of plain clothes officers in unmarked cars, expert enough in covert surveillance to avoid the attention of the McCanns, those they came in contact with, and the media circus.  And all of that 24x7.

And for what?  Dog alerts that had not occurred?

Is there any instance of, say, Leicestershire Police adopting this approach?

I'm not a policeman - so I don't know how it works.     But I believe covert surveillance is a normal procedure used by the police.

It  didn't appear to be a problem to Amaral when it came to surveillance of a UK police officer.

Quote from his book.

We insist on knowing what our English counterparts have come to Portugal to do. I assign one of my investigators to follow the English superintendent like a shadow and to keep me informed about his actions. I want to be informed of everything he learns, the names of the people he meets and the places he goes to.

End quote

According to Amaral he suspected the McCanns of being a couple of criminals.    Surely in those circumstances he would be interested to know more about why (after 3 weeks) they suddenly hired a car.    It could be for perfectly innocent reasons - but if they were guilty of a crime as he suspected - then it might not be? 

As it turned out he concluded that they had used the car for sinister reasons.   Surveillance could have either confirmed that to be the case, or confirmed that it was not the case - at least during the period of surveillance.   

[ShiningInLuz]

I'm not a policeman - so I don't know how it works.     But I believe covert surveillance is a normal procedure used by the police.

It  didn't appear to be a problem to Amaral when it came to surveillance of a UK police officer.

Quote from his book.

We insist on knowing what our English counterparts have come to Portugal to do. I assign one of my investigators to follow the English superintendent like a shadow and to keep me informed about his actions. I want to be informed of everything he learns, the names of the people he meets and the places he goes to.

End quote

According to Amaral he suspected the McCanns of being a couple of criminals.    Surely in those circumstances he would be interested to know more about why (after 3 weeks) they suddenly hired a car.    It could be for perfectly innocent reasons - but if they were guilty of a crime as he suspected - then it might not be? 

As it turned out he concluded that they had used the car for sinister reasons.   Surveillance could have either confirmed that to be the case, or confirmed that it was not the case - at least during the period of surveillance.   

So a single member of Amaral's team was assigned to follow the English superintendent in a non-covert manner.

Hardly the same as 24x7 super-secret monitoring of the McCanns and their hire car.  Is it?

Just so we are on the same wavelength, you do know that the normal mode of transport in Luz is car? And there is a car hire company smack dab in the centre of Luz?

Cos you are making it sound like everyone in Luz using a car is doing something odd.

[ferryman]

and a reconstruction should have taken place ...

The purpose of reconstructions is to jog memories and prompt witnesses to come forward, not attempt to solve the crime directly from a reconstruction of events surrounding the crime.

That isn't a proper use of reconstructions at all.