Author Topic: It's highly unlikely that the colour pink would show up under a sodium street light.  (Read 14186 times)

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Offline John

From another thread.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2709.msg91538#msg91538

When I saw the picture the other evening of the pyjamas that the tourists daughter was wearing I got to wondering how Jane Tanner could possible have misidentified them as having frilly bottoms.  Depicted below is the artists impression created in conjunction with Tanner alongside a photograph of the actual clothing the little girl carried by Innocentman was actually wearing on the night she was seen by Tanner.  The latter have normal length legs and no frills!



Jane Tanner has always denied that she knew what Madeleine was wearing on the night she disappeared.  She certainly didn't know that her pyjamas were pink or had frilly bottoms or did she?

Now consider a photograph which I have just come across showing pyjamas identical to those worn by Madeleine.  Pink with shortened legs and with frilly bottoms - judge for yourself!



« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 01:34:39 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Carana

From another thread.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2709.msg91538#msg91538

When I saw the picture the other evening of the pyjamas that the tourists daughter was wearing I got to wondering how Jane Tanner could possible have misidentified them as having frilly bottoms.  Depicted below is the artists impression created in conjunction with Tanner alongside a photograph of the actual clothing the little girl carried by Innocentman was actually wearing on the night she was seen by Tanner.  The latter have normal length legs and no frills!



Jane Tanner has always denied that she knew what Madeleine was wearing on the night she disappeared.  She certainly didn't know that her pyjamas were pink or had frilly bottoms or did she?

Now consider a photograph which I have just come across showing pyjamas identical to those worn by Madeleine.  Pink with shortened legs and with frilly bottoms - judge for yourself!



That may be why a doubt over the identity of Crecheman may still exist, John.

Offline John

Frilly bottoms is something you don't get wrong even with sodium lights which leaves only two possibilities.

1.  Jane Tanner did see Madeleine being carried off.

2.  Jane Tanner overstated the frilly bottom claim.


'I don’t, I didn’t know, I thought there was sort of a pink flowery bit on, bit on it, but, no, I mean, the actual frill itself or turn-up, as I thought it was, I couldn’t think of the colour, but I thought there was pink sort of flowery and sort of like liney bits on the bottom, so.....I think they were sort of whitey but with this, with this pattern on, but then some pink.  That’s, that’s what I thought at the time.'
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 01:51:55 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Carana

Frilly bottoms is something you don't get wrong even with sodium lights which leaves only two possibilities.

1.  Jane Tanner did see Madeleine being carried off.

2.  Jane Tanner overstated the frilly bottom claim.

Does anyone know where the Crecheman's pyjamas came from?

Offline John

Does anyone know where the Crecheman's pyjamas came from?

According to former DCI Redwood, from the tourist known as Crechman/Innocentman.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Carana

According to former DCI Redwood, from the tourist known as Crechman/Innocentman.

Thanks, John, I'm aware of that. But where were they bought?

Offline John

Thanks, John, I'm aware of that. But where were they bought?

I'm assuming in the UK but as far as I'm aware it was never disclosed.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline pathfinder73

From another thread.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2709.msg91538#msg91538

When I saw the picture the other evening of the pyjamas that the tourists daughter was wearing I got to wondering how Jane Tanner could possible have misidentified them as having frilly bottoms.  Depicted below is the artists impression created in conjunction with Tanner alongside a photograph of the actual clothing the little girl carried by Innocentman was actually wearing on the night she was seen by Tanner.  The latter have normal length legs and no frills!



Jane Tanner has always denied that she knew what Madeleine was wearing on the night she disappeared.  She certainly didn't know that her pyjamas were pink or had frilly bottoms or did she?

Now consider a photograph which I have just come across showing pyjamas identical to those worn by Madeleine.  Pink with shortened legs and with frilly bottoms - judge for yourself!





Yes the frilly bottoms was added to that sketch - make up your own mind as to why that happened to match the pyjamas her parents showed to the world but Jane didn't see frilly bottoms on the night.

She saw a different colour bottom turn ups which matches Crecheman's daughter pyjamas. That sighting has been cleared for good reason i.e. nothing to do with Madeleine's disappearance but some may say an ideal patsy  8(0(* The point of argument is how she passed two men briefly chatting in a deserted street without either noticing. That suggests the pathway other route back to her apartment to avoid the men and may explain why she wasn't seen.

"I thought there was sort of a pink flowery bit on, bit on it, but, no, I mean, the actual frill itself or turn-up, as I thought it was."

Jane Tanner
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 05:40:58 PM by John »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline John

It comes down to this.  If Redwood and SY are to be believed then the bottom of the pyjamas were distinctly orange with no frills so the witness was mistaken in her reference to them having a frill or frills.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 05:35:16 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Brietta

Yes the frilly bottoms was added to that sketch - make up your own mind as to why that happened to match the pyjamas her parents showed to the world but Jane didn't see frilly bottoms on the night.

She saw a different colour bottom turn ups which matches Crecheman's daughter pyjamas. That sighting has been cleared for good reason i.e. nothing to do with Madeleine's disappearance but some may say an ideal patsy  8(0(* The point of argument is how she passed two men briefly chatting in a deserted street without either noticing. That suggests the pathway other route back to her apartment to avoid the men and may explain why she wasn't seen.

"I thought there was sort of a pink flowery bit on, bit on it, but, no, I mean, the actual frill itself or turn-up, as I thought it was."

Jane Tanner

The only source I can find for that image is Textusa ... can it be found anywhere else?
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Robittybob1

It comes down to this.  If Redwood and SY are to be believed then the bottom of the pyjamas were distinctly orange with no frills so the witness was mistaken in her reference to them having a frill or frills.
Could we use other words rather than "mistaken"?  When was it that the picture was drawn up?  Jane Tanner is hugely influence by a newspaper article written on the Friday or Saturday where Fiona, Rachel and Jane all talk about the type of pyjamas Tanner sighting could have been wearing.   
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Offline Robittybob1

Frilly bottoms is something you don't get wrong even with sodium lights which leaves only two possibilities.

1.  Jane Tanner did see Madeleine being carried off.

2.  Jane Tanner overstated the frilly bottom claim.


'I don’t, I didn’t know, I thought there was sort of a pink flowery bit on, bit on it, but, no, I mean, the actual frill itself or turn-up, as I thought it was, I couldn’t think of the colour, but I thought there was pink sort of flowery and sort of like liney bits on the bottom, so.....I think they were sort of whitey but with this, with this pattern on, but then some pink.  That’s, that’s what I thought at the time.'
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm
I was working to see if we could find the reason Jane Tanner's memory faulted on this occasion? 
So there could be more than 2 options:
1.  Jane Tanner did see Madeleine being carried off.

2.  Jane Tanner overstated the frilly bottom claim.

3. Jane Tanner spoke to someone who knew what Madeleine's pyjamas were like and this conversation influenced Jane's memory.  And the memory of this conversation is mistaken.

The section of the rogatory interview speaks of the influence other factors had on her memory.
'I don’t, I didn’t know, I thought there was sort of a pink flowery bit on, bit on it, but, no, I mean, the actual frill itself or turn-up, as I thought it was, I couldn’t think of the colour, but I thought there was pink sort of flowery and sort of like liney bits on the bottom, so.....I think they were sort of whitey but with this, with this pattern on, but then some pink.  That’s, that’s what I thought at the time.'
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm


The thought at the time description is pretty good.  "there was pink sort of flowery and sort of like liney bits on the bottom, so.....I think they were sort of whitey but with this, with this pattern on, but then some pink."

The Creche man pyjamas they have pink flowers on them.  They were light blue or "whitey"  as she calls it.
"liney bits on the bottom" could be the straight edge cuffs  which were "pink" in colour.
Had that drawing been made on the night it would have been more accurate.  The fact that people note her memory improves is an indication she is picking up on what Madeleine was wearing IMO.
 
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 08:27:00 PM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline G-Unit

According to Jane she found out what Madeleine's pyjamas looked like on Saturday 5th;

I think when I realised the true significance of what I’d seen as well was almost like a couple of days afterwards when, erm, erm, I was talking to Fi about the pyjamas, because again it seems madness now why I hadn’t asked Kate and Gerry before this what the pyjamas were like, but it’s all sort of rha rha, you know, so I didn’t know what, what Madeleine’s pyjamas were before this.  And I’d actually read in a paper that they were white, it was in the Telegraph, I think it was the day afterwards Dianne had bought a Telegraph paper and in there it was saying she was wearing plain white pyjamas, so I think when I read that I almost thought ‘Oh maybe I have got it wrong’, you know, because I’d, out of everything, I thought ‘Oh they weren’t just plain white’, I thought they had got some sort of thing on it.  So I think it might have actually been the next morning, which would probably be the Saturday morning, I think I said something to, about oh, to Fi ‘Oh what were the pyjamas like’ and she actually described the pyjamas and she sort of said ‘Oh no that is what they were like’.  And that was, I think that was almost the moment when I couldn’t convince myself anymore that it wasn’t that, you know. 
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm

According to Kate she found out what Jane had seen on the morning of 4th when Jane came round to 5H, but I think she's got it wrong;

....mercifully. Russell, Jane, Matt, Rachael and their children began to arrive.That morning I learned of the man Jane had seen in the street...........Although Jane had never seen or known about Madeleine’s Eeyore pyjamas, her description of this child’s night clothes – light-coloured pink or white pyjamas with a ‘trailing’ or floral pattern and turn-ups on the bottoms – matched Madeleine’s almost exactly. From the style of these pyjamas, she had also assumed the child was a girl. There was little doubt in my mind then, nor is there now, that what Jane saw was Madeleine’s abductor taking her away. [Madeleine]

Jane denies going round that morning, however;

They had gone up into, erm, Dave and Fi, well decamped up to Dave and Fi’s room.  There was lots of people running about and it was almost like, you know, I’ll just, not keep out of the way, but, you know, it was almost like, we didn’t feel we could, not we didn’t feel we could go up there, but it was almost like, you know, I don’t know how to put it into words, but, you know, you just sort of, I don’t know how to say this, it almost sounds like we were keeping out of the way. which is not what I’m saying at all, but, you know, they were so distraught, it was how do you talk to somebody like that, especially because we don’t know them that well, so they’re closest to Dave and Fi, so we almost like left Dave and Fi, you know, to cope with the emotional side of it, I suppose, is the best way of putting it.
 http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm

Jane says it was a few days later;

 I think it was, it was actually a few days later that we actually sat down and sort of I actually told them directly what I’d seen
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.html

Rachael said Saturday and she doesn't say they went to 5H on the morning of 5th, Matt took Grace to the Millenium for breakfast.

I think it must have been on the Saturday, erm that the pyjamas, Jane described the pyjamas to Fiona and Fiona found out from Kate, erm what Madeleine's pyjamas were like and they were the same as the ones that Jane had described'.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RACHAEL-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm



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Offline Robittybob1

Thank you G-unit for that discussion but I saw the insight  again, the one I had at the beginning of my investigation, and that is Fiona's knowledge of the pyjamas was not preceded by a conditional statement.  She knew what Madeleine's pyjamas were like.  She didn't say "Kate told me her pyjamas were like .... ".
Quote
Saturday morning, I think I said something to, about oh, to Fi ‘Oh what were the pyjamas like’ and she actually described the pyjamas and she sort of said ‘Oh no that is what they were like’.

I read yesterday GA in his book refers to Fiona having visited the McCanns the evening/night of the 3rd.
I'm just going off memory here but it is quite fresh.  But this visit is not brought out in Fiona's statements that we have.  This is part of the translation problem where more things were said than ever recorded in the translated statements which often appear more a summary rather than word for word recording.

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Offline Robittybob1

Quote from Truth of the lie
Quote
There is a whole other version of that late afternoon, that of Fiona Payne. According to her, Gerry was not playing tennis but was in the apartment with Kate and the children. Apparently, she accompanied her husband when he went to the McCanns' apartment. Who is telling the truth?
Page #81 0f the online version.
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