Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?

[Alice Purjorick]

Opening could be any of the small windows, or air ventilation system, or other door being open.

Every photo seems to have the windows on the road side are shut.  Ruled out.
No one has said the front door was open.  Ruled out.
Sliding patio door checked to be closed by Kate.   Ruled out.
So the two openings that we don't know about.
1. Air conditioning duct causing up-draughts.
2. The bifold door in the parents room allowing a through draught. Matt's visit to the main bedroom casts doubt on this window.

If the door in the parent's room was partially open sandwiched between the shutters and the curtains it could go missed.

You have yet to consider volume, rate, wind direction*, the fact thst gases are compressible and the force required to billow curtains.

* in view of it's proximity to the sea likely blowing from the north. Have you bothered to plot all this out in the correct orientation?
I am still strubbling with it's relevance  to : "Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?

[pathfinder73]

And Amie Tiery (sp)

She saw that the shutter was raised and that the window was partially open. It was then that she began to look in the wardrobes to see if the girl was hiding.

Why do you have a problem with that?

For timeline purposes it is very worrying because Dianne Webster couldn't raise the shutter as seen in the crime scene photos (twisted and stuck) so how Amy saw them raised after Dianne doesn't add up.

[Robittybob1]

You have yet to consider volume, rate, wind direction*, the fact thst gases are compressible and the force required to billow curtains.

* in view of it's proximity to the sea likely blowing from the north. Have you bothered to plot all this out in the correct orientation?
I am still strubbling with it's relevance  to : "Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?

Well do you think the same curtains are still there?  The same fabric colour and density, and if they are we can wait till we get a day of similar weather pattern as 03/05/2007 which has definitely been recorded, and then attempt the reconstruction of the whooshing curtains.

As far as orientation it is simply North facing children's bedroom.  I would prefer to do the reconstruction in apartment 5A to keep as many factors as possible the same.

[Robittybob1]

We need to remind ourselves of what Matthew Oldfield says about the curtains in the main bedroom.

Matt's rogatory statement:

4078 'I am sorry, you already said how long you think you were in the apartment for, I have forgotten''
Reply 'It can't have been more than a couple of minutes, because, erm, I mean, there was no, you know, it was just sort of a check and then it was back really. I remember sort of being able to pivot here and be able to see this room door was open as well and those shutters weren't down, they were just curtains and that was fairly, fairly light as well. And I just sort of came back out really through the same way and shutting the patio doors'.

Gosh, I get a bad feeling when I read about Matt's check of the front side of the apartment:

4078 'Can you make any comment on the door or, erm, is this a window as well, it is not, is it''
Reply 'Erm, there's a window, I think, well from the drawing I don't recall it as a window there, that's the front door here, then you come round past the shutters, and we listened outside here, and the front door there. I, it's, I can't say, I don't recall it being open, I'm sure, I presume that I would have seen it, but I can't guarantee that it wasn't, erm, it wasn't shut at that point.

He couldn't even guarantee the front door was closed!

On the 10th May statement nothing is very definite either:

That he did not enter the bedroom where MBM and the twins were sleeping. He recalls that the bedroom door was half open, making an angle of 50 degrees. He does not know how far away he was from the bedroom door. He recalls having the perception that the window curtains - green in colour - were drawn closed but could not determine if the window was closed or open. Concerning the external blinds he clarifies that he did not see if it was closed or open. He recalls having thought that in that bedroom there was more brightness than there was in his daughter's room (where the external blinds were always fully closed), adding to have had the feeling that that light was coming from the outside - making the point that both were turned in the same direction.

Consequently, he admits the possibility of the light he was perceiving was owing to the blinds being raised, denying however that he was capable of assessing the height at which it may have been.

The question asked, he was sure that, at the time of his first being in the vicinity of MBM's bedroom, reported as 21h05 in the course of which he had approached the the window of that bedroom from the outside for the purpose of an auditory check, the blinds were, in his view, fully closed.

Consequently, he is convinced that at the time of the second check the blinds were more open than on the first check, given that he considers that the light inside the bedroom, undoubtedly coming from the outside, could not have been coming through it [the blinds] if they had been fully closed.

 On the original statement 4th.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD.htm

At around 9.25pm, the interviewee went into his apartment and Madeleine's apartment to check on the children. He states that the door of the bedroom that was occupied by Madeleine and the twins, was open and that there was enough light in the bedroom for him to see the twins in their cots. That he couldn't see the bed occupied by Madeleine, but as it was all quiet, he deduced that she was sleeping. That the light was not from an artificial source inside the apartment, but perhaps something coming from outside through the bedroom window. That it seemed to him that the shutters of the Master' bedroom window were open without knowing if the window was also open.

The shutters could have been up and the window could have been open! (Basically he couldn't see because the curtain was closed.)  And no further mention of this window by anyone yet in the crime scene photo the shutters are down, the window is closed and the curtain is open. All the opposites to what Matt saw or thought were possible.

I intend to send this to SY so they can question Kate and Gerry re the security check they had made prior to going to the Tapas Bar. Did they check the bifold door?

[Robittybob1]

For timeline purposes it is very worrying because Dianne Webster couldn't raise the shutter as seen in the crime scene photos (twisted and stuck) so how Amy saw them raised after Dianne doesn't add up.

I think Dianne Webster needs a separate thread actually:

- In that apartment she found that KATE was completely in panic, in "state of shock ".
- Because she was asked, she states that she entered the apartment by the sliding glass door of the patio at the back, which gives access to the lounge. Then she went to the children's bedroom, noting that there she found KATE and the twin siblings of MADELEINE

- She added that she did not remember too much detail about the scenario that she found in that bedroom, other that what she said above. However, she states that KATE had repeatedly commented that, on arriving at the bedroom, she had found the
window of the room, with its shutter, both open. Yet, she [DW] did not notice, while at the entrance to the room, if the window was or was not open.
- However, she wants to stress that immediately afterwards, she went outside the apartment in order to ascertain whether she would be able to raise the shutters by hand from the outside, and found it was impossible for her. Consequently she infers that at the time of her arrival at the apartment the window would have been closed.

- Because she was asked, she says she does not know if the window, and the shutter, of the couple's bedroom were open or not, in that she did not enter that room.

Why is she trying the shutters out?

[Robittybob1]

Do we all agree we can't be sure if the window in the adult's bedroom was secure during the evening up to the time the PJ took the photo?
Do we all agree it would be odd behaviour for an intruder to lift the shutters on the main bedroom if the sliding door right beside this window was unlocked and without the hinderance of having to lift shutters?

[sadie]

I think Dianne Webster needs a separate thread actually:
Why is she trying the shutters out?

Because, like me, she would have wanted to see how easy it was to open them.  She was trying to work things out.

IMO.

[mercury]

I think Dianne Webster needs a separate thread actually:
Why is she trying the shutters out?

Why was anyone trying the shutters out tampering with evidencebeforethe police were even called?
What was the purpose?
What difference would it have made  to anything?
Gerry Mccann said they were very conscious of no one touching anything in the room for forensic reasons so restricted the access . So?? Doesnt make sense. Does anyone think a grandma in the party took it on herself to test the shutters? She was obviously invited to. What for? Answers on a postcard.

[Robittybob1]

Why was anyone trying the shutters out tampering with evidencebeforethe police were even called?
What was the purpose?
What difference would it have made  to anything?
Gerry Mccann said they were very conscious of no one touching anything in the room for forensic reasons so restricted the access . So?? Doesnt make sense. Does anyone think a grandma in the party took it on herself to test the shutters? She was obviously invited to. What for? Answers on a postcard.

Can't agree more .I have a feeling once you lift them from the outside it throws them off the tracks and they jamb in a slightly raised position.   Which means unless the shutters are wound up as well, from the inside, the shutter won't be found fully up.  From the outside you can lift them up but they won't stay up.

She would have been doing that on her own wouldn't she?  Summing up the situation.

[Robittybob1]

Because, like me, she would have wanted to see how easy it was to open them.  She was trying to work things out.

IMO.

It is a crime scene Sadie!  I think you might have practiced on a neighbouring window.

[pathfinder73]

I think Dianne Webster needs a separate thread actually:
Why is she trying the shutters out?

"She states that KATE had repeatedly commented that, on arriving at the bedroom, she had found the window of the room, with its shutter, both open." Dianne tampered with the crime scene.  Crack on I'm not stopping you   

Fiona wouldn't touch that shutter. She arrived at the apartment after Dianne had tried raising the shutter.

1485
 'What did you see when you walked in, describe it''
 
 Reply
 'At that point, Gerry, I don't think was in the apartment, it was mainly Kate. And Kate was just, huh, utter disbelief and I had disbelief, thinking she's got to be here, you know, what, how can this have happened. And by that point Kate was already saying that the, what she'd found when she'd gone back, which was that the, she'd found the window open and the shutter open and she was convinced at that point that somebody had taken, taken Madeleine and that's what she was telling me and I was like 'They can't have done. They can't have done this', you know. And I looked, I looked throughout the whole apartment and I looked in all the cupboards, under the drawers, under the beds, behind the curtains, everywhere, erm, just, you know, trying to, knowing it had already been done, but you just do. Erm, tut, I looked, when I went into the room that Madeleine was sleeping in, the room was dark, Madeleine, erm, Madeleine's bed was sort of folded back, the sheets, quite kind of neatly really, erm, Sean and Amelie were fast asleep in their cots, they didn't stir, you know, I was opening the cupboards in the room and moving around the room, they didn't stir at all, which that was, that was odd. Erm, we were trying to ascertain whether Madeleine could have got out, and I've already said earlier the shutters were very heavy, and I was almost trying to convince Kate that she could have opened the shutter and climbed out, although knowing that wasn't a likely thing, but at that point we were just trying to pacify Kate in that Madeleine was going to be alright. Erm, and I, I think I touched the webbing in that room, but because Sean and Amelie were asleep, I didn't actually open the shutter in that room, we went, I went to the front of the house and I was trying to lift the shutter at the, at the back, just to prove whether, you know, whether it could have been opened and whether Madeleine could have opened it from the inside'.
 
 00.50.31
 1485
 'And''
 
 Reply
 'I mean, it was fairly obviously, I think, that that wasn't what had happened and what could have happened'.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

[sadie]

Why was anyone trying the shutters out tampering with evidencebeforethe police were even called?
What was the purpose?
What difference would it have made  to anything?
Gerry Mccann said they were very conscious of no one touching anything in the room for forensic reasons so restricted the access . So?? Doesnt make sense. Does anyone think a grandma in the party took it on herself to test the shutters? She was obviously invited to. What for? Answers on a postcard.

Obviously invited to?  Cite please

[sadie]

It is a crime scene Sadie!  I think you might have practiced on a neighbouring window.

Remember, Diane had been away from the search action.  Maybe she didn't realise that it was a crime scene and still thought that it was a case of a little girl climbing out of the window and walking off. 

She was trying to work out how a little girl like Madeleine managed it IMO


I am sure that had she realised it was a crime scene, she wouldn't have touched anything


ETA:  And from Fionas statement above, it appears she tried to lift the shutter too.
Maybe several of them did?

[Lace]

Why was anyone trying the shutters out tampering with evidencebeforethe police were even called?
What was the purpose?
What difference would it have made  to anything?
Gerry Mccann said they were very conscious of no one touching anything in the room for forensic reasons so restricted the access . So?? Doesnt make sense. Does anyone think a grandma in the party took it on herself to test the shutters? She was obviously invited to. What for? Answers on a postcard.

Who thinks of forensics when they are in a state of shock after finding their daughter missing?    In my opinion Gerry wanted to see if the shutters could be raised from outside to rule out that Madeleine could have opened them from the inside.   He found that they could be raised.     Dianne wanted to see for herself by the look of it maybe she just wasn't strong enough to lift them.   

When the McCann's were absolutely sure that Madeleine couldn't have got out of the apartment by herself then they made sure nothing was touched in the bedroom.

[slartibartfast]

Who thinks of forensics when they are in a state of shock after finding their daughter missing?    In my opinion Gerry wanted to see if the shutters could be raised from outside to rule out that Madeleine could have opened them from the inside.   He found that they could be raised.     Dianne wanted to see for herself by the look of it maybe she just wasn't strong enough to lift them.   

When the McCann's were absolutely sure that Madeleine couldn't have got out of the apartment by herself then they made sure nothing was touched in the bedroom.

Do we regard the "They've taken her" as a myth?