Multiple reasons why Sheila Caffell is innocent and Jeremy Bamber is guilty

[Holly Goodhead]

Rivlin was limited by the evidence including his own expert. While you have no problem with just making up anything you feel like a lawyer cannot do that.  A lawyer doesn't testify he gets evidence admitted through witnesses. 

How could blood accidentally get inside the suppressor?  The blood on the outside, particularly the blood on the rear part near the threads could have been (and obviously was) deposited by accident but blood that sprayed inside to the various baffles can't have gotten in by accident.  How can human blood accidentally spray or even drip inside?

At any rate it wasn't dripped which harms your claim it was planted. Instead of just dripping there was spray which deposited on various baffles.  The defense expert tested the gun after the prosecution already removed all visible blood. He still found blood on the first 7 baffles though. His findings about the blood type mirrored the prosecution's findings.  Both found it was almost certainly Sheila's blood type but there was a very slight chance it could have been June and Nevill's blood mixed.   

Based on these findings the only argument a lawyer could make is to assert the blood was June and Nevill's not Sheila's to try to dispute that the silencer was definitely affixed when Sheila's fatal shot was delivered. It is a weak argument but the only one permissible.

What is absurd is the argument you make.  It is absurd to suggest Sheila's blood type got inside by accident.  It is even more absurd to claim that the cousins knew Sheila's blood type (how would they know this), and had a cousin with the same blood type plant his blood inside. Moreover he didn't just tdrip it in he somehow sprayed it in to simulate back spatter.

The fact you claim your argument is more rational than the one made at trial illustrates just how ridiculous you bias is really is in this case.

The best part is that the suppressor was tested for DNA and nothing was found as relating to the cousin whose blood you suggest was planted. You suggest other DNA was transferred but his was entirely washed away. Even today with modern technology the defense would have little basis to suggest the blood had been planted.

You are embarrassing yourself by the claims you are making.   


First of all posting all the evidence in the world about how some people commit murder suicides doesn't negate all the evidence of Jeremy's guilt which you conventiently ignore time and again.

At any rate, the events at WHF do not fit anything you posted.

Those who commit murder suicide because of depression typically kill their children and spouse if they have one before committing suicide. They kill their dependents and often spouse. They don't kill their parents or extended family as well typically.  Mothers often kill their kids and then themselves, they often don't kill their spouse or ex-spouse.       

Sheila suffereing from depression and deciding to kill herself and her kids doesn't explain murdering her parents.

This is why the psychotic episode claim is made for why she killed her father. It is suggested that she viewed him as the devil and that she killed him for that reason.  This still doesn't explain killing the mother too.   

Similarly Sheila having a psychotic episode and attributing her father as the devil does not account for the other murders.

Your past suggestions and the suggestions of other Jeremy apologists conflate various murders and murder suicides theories together. This is that one case where supposedly Sheila suffered from everything all at once. All at once she decided to kill herself and her kids because of her long term depression.  At the same time she had a psychotic episode where she had delusions that her dad was the devil and her mother was some other evil entity she had to kill.

You fail to account for the thought that went into removing the telephone from the bedroom in advance ot make sure the victims could not phone for help. How would she know in advance she would have delusions and need the phone removed and why would the phone even matter to her in such circumstances.  Why would she care if they used the phone as she was killing them?  It is not as if it would matter if they would ID her as the killer over the phone before she killed them.

But consistency is not something you care about.

Indeed while you post all these links and insist it was a murder suicide for depression or the like you assert she didn't commit suicide right away.  You assert she killed everyone else then showered and changed her clothes and hoped to get away with it but afte rpolice broke in then she decided to kill herself knowing she couldn't get away with it.

You don't even subscribe to your own theories you jump all over to try to find a way to claim Jeremy is innocent.  You are a mess.

We are supposed to believe she had a psychotic episode and thus murdered her father and murder thinking they were the devil or something else of that sort.  Then because of her severe depression she killed her kids and herself.  So she suffered from 2 different things.

If you want to talk about SC's psychological profile you need to factor in adoption, attachment and neglect.  This is what sets SC and JB apart.  We know JB  has been screened on numerous occasions by different psychologists using various methods.  None have found any trace of psychopathy or any other personality disorder or mental illness.  We know SC was mentally ill but what the psychiatrists appear to have overlooked is;

-adoption psychology

-attachment disorder)
                              ) June's mental illness 1959 as a result of adopting SC
-neglect                  )

We also know SC met with her birth mother just weeks before the murders.

"This article describes the possible etiology of sudden, uncharacteristic violence in adoptees.  A "cumulative trauma" is identified that may foster unrealistic fantasies  of the birth parents and lead to dissociation of parts of the self, including rageful feelings towards adoptive and birth parents.  Real or perceived rejection may trigger emergence of this rage, with sometimes murderous results.  Implication for the mental status defense as  described"

http://www.adoptionunchartedwaters.com/catathymic-violence.php

[sika]

Sheila.

Holly, whilst I think you're a bit barmy, I also think you're a great asset to this forum.

Hope you don't mind me saying!

[scipio_usmc]

If you want to talk about SC's psychological profile you need to factor in adoption, attachment and neglect.  This is what sets SC and JB apart.  We know JB  has been screened on numerous occasions by different psychologists using various methods.  None have found any trace of psychopathy or any other personality disorder or mental illness.  We know SC was mentally ill but what the psychiatrists appear to have overlooked is;

-adoption psychology

-attachment disorder)
                              ) June's mental illness 1959 as a result of adopting SC
-neglect                  )

We also know SC met with her birth mother just weeks before the murders.

"This article describes the possible etiology of sudden, uncharacteristic violence in adoptees.  A "cumulative trauma" is identified that may foster unrealistic fantasies  of the birth parents and lead to dissociation of parts of the self, including rageful feelings towards adoptive and birth parents.  Real or perceived rejection may trigger emergence of this rage, with sometimes murderous results.  Implication for the mental status defense as  described"

http://www.adoptionunchartedwaters.com/catathymic-violence.php

No I don't need to factor in adoption.

The issue is the murders and her alleged suicide. The issue is to look in detail at the causes behind murders and murder suicides of those with mental conditions and determine whether there is any evidence that occurred in this case.

It is alleged that she suffered from a psychotic episode. The issue is what evidence is there to establish she suffered from a psychotic episode and if she did what shape would such an episode take and who would she kill. 

You keep trying to turn the inquiry upside down to suit your own agenda instead of following the facts.

The fact of the matter is that so far as murder suicides are concerned people in depression give up on life and decide to end their life and those they are responsible for taking care of.  Some go further and decide to take as many innocent people as they can with them but that features much more than just depression at work.  Her depression, in fact her schizophrenia, was not severe and even when it was first discovered years earlier none of her medical professionals thought it was serious enough that she would ever harm her children or herself.  her case was MILD not severe.  Moreover she was receiving treatment. Therein lies a big distinction between cases where suicide/murders are known to have occurred.  Known cases involve people who were either not being treated or who were being treated but stopped taking their medication.  It is difficult to find any cases where people with mental conditions kill themselves or others because of mental problems while on their medication unless under the influence of some other drug that induces psychosis.

Jeremy supporters consistently lie on this issue. They suggest she was not taking her medication or that it didn't work because it ran out.  It was found in her system it had not run out. The next bogus claim is that because her dosage was lowered this means it would not likely be effective. Tests show that 100MG has no appreciable difference between 200MG. The standard dosage today is 50-100MG because higher dosages have much greater side effects with little difference in effectiveness. Only severe cases warrant more.

Only hours before her death her aunt spoke with her over the phone, she was docile and quiet not agitated.

Everyone would normally go to sleep shortly after that.  So what would suddenly agitate her to a tremndous degree at a late hour so much that her medicine would stop working and she woudl ggo wake people up to even yell at them?

If she were depressed and wanted to end her life and her dependents why kill her parents too?  That is not part of the pattern even of someone who is not medicated let alone medicated.  Her father was among her most beloved people. Her mother is the one she had a problem with. So a different theory is posited for killing him.  It is suggested her medication stopped working and she had a delusion he was the devil and she needed to kill him or that he had the devil in him and she needed to beat it out of him.  That would not explain the deaths of the others though.  People deluded like this will kill the one viewed as the devil not everyone.  They will even wait calmly for police to arrest them afterwards.  At any rate there are no examples of people who were actively taking their medication who ended up killing anyone else because of a delusion.

So we are supposed to buy that she suffered simultaneously from psychotic delusion and suicidal depression and both resulted in the various deaths.  How many reported cases are there of this among medicated psyc patients?  None.   

You ignore all the issues of significance including the preparations made by the killer which evidence the killer intended to escape liability and go on living alone.  That is the only reason for removing the phone. Also for putting the suppressor away.

You distorted the case of a man who killed himself with his family erroneously claiming he washed his car after he murdered them to suggest it is likely she took a bath and changed her clothes after killing everyone which again would be totally contrary to the murder suicide theory you allege. 

Your claims are a complete mess. You are just embarrassing yourself.

Trying to divert attention to talk about her adoption will not work with me.  I can't be dazzled with BS or diverted.

[Jodie]

You can talk forever about how Sheila's upbringing/mental illness may have meant she was capable of a psychotic episode but when all is said and done the evidence proves that on that occasion it just didn't happen. Jeremy knew she was fragile and used that as way to get what he wanted by killing his family and get away with it.

[scipio_usmc]

You can talk forever about how Sheila's upbringing/mental illness may have meant she was capable of a psychotic episode but when all is said and done the evidence proves that on that occasion it just didn't happen. Jeremy knew she was fragile and used that as way to get what he wanted by killing his family and get away with it.

Allow me to present the typical Jeremy defender's response.

Sheila's medicine stopped working, she had a psychotic episode and she decided that everyone in the house was the devil and that she needed to kill them all.  She assumed her best chance to kill them would be at night when no one else was around and they were sleeping. She thus planned her attack and her calm was all an act. The calm was focused rage. She planned to get away with these murders so she removed the phone from the bedroom.  How did she intend to blame the murders on someone else?  She died so we will never know what her plan was.  After the murders she bathed and changed her clothing and went to bed. She woke up to find the police around the house.  By this point she had snapped out of her psychotic episode she was having. She was disturbed by what she had done and realized there was no way out because there were cops all around outside so she decided to kill herself and pulled the trigger just as they broke in so it masked the sound of the gunshots.

The most well planned out psychotic episode in history.  Something out of a book or movie because it is the only place you would find such fictional nonsense.
 

[goatboy]

These things take years to come to light as with the financial crisis when Lord Turner stated the following:

“I think we – as the authorities, central banks, regulators, those involved today – are the inheritors of a 50-year-long, large intellectual and policy mistake,” he says.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/9934819/Adair-Turner-Bankers-no-longer-in-denial.html

I know for a FACT that JB has many influential supporters.  I am sure some will be familiar to you when the time is right    I suspect you will have your hands full moderating this forum later in the year when the whole world will be watching and Misty's owner will be the least of your worries.  A new CCRC application winging its way and two new books to boot 

Will the new books both be alleging that his case is an MOJ?

You seem very confident about Jeremy's prospects at the moment, any particular reason? What's going to happen later this year?

[puglove]

Will the new books both be alleging that his case is an MOJ?

You seem very confident about Jeremy's prospects at the moment, any particular reason? What's going to happen later this year?

Ooh, I know this one!

They're little, round and green, and Jeremy Bamber thinks they should be cooked for 45 minutes.   

[T1000]

Hello everyone in time i will read through everything on here so sorry if my questions have been asked before. I was wondering if SC was tested for gunshot residue.

[lane99]

Allow me to present the typical Jeremy defender's response...

She planned to get away with these murders so she removed the phone from the bedroom....

I'm assuming then it's uncontested by both sides that it was the murderer who removed the phone.  I wonder why Bamber's supporters argue it necessarily means the sister did so to attempt a cover-up?  As opposed to simply removing the ability for the victims to call for help, and preempting the possibility, however remote, of having responders arrive to interrupt the murders.  Which would seem to me a more probable reason.

...there was no way out because there were cops all around outside so she decided to kill herself...

Is it dogma amongst typical or average Bamber supporters that the sister killed herself some hours after the murders?  And not perhaps more immediately after showering and cleaning herself up?

[scipio_usmc]

I'm assuming then it's uncontested by both sides that it was the murderer who removed the phone.  I wonder why Bamber's supporters argue it necessarily means the sister did so to attempt a cover-up?  As opposed to simply removing the ability for the victims to call for help, and preempting the possibility, however remote, of having responders arrive to interrupt the murders.  Which would seem to me a more probable reason.

If someone had removed the bedroom phone and simply hid it then that would be extremely suspicious. So instead someone hid the kitchen phone and replaced it with the bedroom phone presumably telling the victims it was broken. But it wasn't broken it was tested after the murders and was working fine. 

What valid reason would there be to take the bedroom phone out of the bedroom, unplug a fully functioning kitchen phone, hide the kitchen phone and to plug the bedroom phone in the kitchen?  The only explanation for this is that the killer did such.

Jeremy's supporters want to ignore that this happened but when challenged they have no valid argument to make accept admitting the killer did this and when they do they blame Sheila because she is the one they insist was the killer. 

They were too far away from authorities and even neighbors for responders to be able to stop the killer unless the killer had a very limited ammo supply, ran out of ammo and had no other means to finish off the victims and they had to bleed to death.  A killer who was determined to commit suicide after killing everyone else would not have any reason to worry in advance about moving the phone. 

This is particularly true if the killer were Sheila. Shooting her parents in their bed would prevent them from using the phone. The phone would be a bigger concern if she had planned to shoot other adults in other rooms first and they might wake up and call someone.   

So long as she was detemrined to commit suicide after killing everyone and didn't care if her identity was revealed she had no need to worry at all to worry about the bedroom phone being used.  By the time even Jeremy could arrive and break in, it would be too late so long as she had sufficient ammo and there were hundreds of rounds in the house.

Is it dogma amongst typical or average Bamber supporters that the sister killed herself some hours after the murders?  And not perhaps more immediately after showering and cleaning herself up?

Some of Jeremy's supporters are more irraitonal than others.  The most irrational ones insist either police killed Sheila or she shot herself as police entered.  Others suggest she shot herself soon after the others.  Not all of them insist she bathed and changed her clothes.  Some suggest she was wearing gloves. Others suggest the gunshot residue simply simply faded away from her body and clothing falsely asserting that gunshot residue simply dissipates all by itslef in the matter of a couple of hours.  Jeremy's supporters change their claims depending upon what he claim is that they need to try to dispute. 

If Sheila intended to commit murder suicide why would she take a bath and change her clothes before killing herself?  Never are Jeremy's supporters able to explain this away. Those who respond typically will respond that maybe she didn't intend to kill herself and only decided to do so after she took the bath and changed.

That alters the entire dynamic of the crime though. That means her intention at the outset was to commit murder merely. That doesn't fit the claims made though of her having a psychotic episode. 

His supporters like to tackle the case piecemeal. If you add up everything then their claims make no sense, are contradicted and fall apart. They want to take each issue in isolation and come up with some excuse to try to deal with that 1 issue.       

[puglove]

"Some of Jeremy's supporters are more irrational than others." HO!! That's like saying that some of Jeremy Kyle's guests have 3 teeth rather than 2. And much as I'm fond of Holly and Ags, it's been almost 30 years now, and they're still hoping that Sheila ran up and down the stairs, barking like a dog. With a bullet in her throat. But no explanation for the second shot, or the lack of prints on the gun. Or how she had time to dry her hair after the "psychotic cleansing."

Tch.

[Jodie]

Jeremy made numerous mistakes carrying out the murders which ultimately lead to his ridiculous claim of Sheila being the culprit falling apart. Putting the silencer in the cupboard (without cleaning it) as an attempt to hide it rather than leaving it near Sheila's body pretty much sells it for me. There is no plausable reason for Sheila to have done that, let alone have the ability to do so after being shot in the throat! JB's claim that his Father rang him puts him right in the frame, as does his inability to explain why he called his girlfriend after apparently receiving said call before calling the police - and not even 999 at that. Even without the actual evidence to prove his guilt I find it extremely difficult to believe Sheila was capable of the murders when Jeremy was the one planning on setting fire to WHF and trying to sell pictures of his dead sister days after her death.

[Jodie]

Hello everyone in time i will read through everything on here so sorry if my questions have been asked before. I was wondering if SC was tested for gunshot residue.

Hi. No trace of gsr was found on Sheila. It's evident she hadn't fired a weapon that night unless she did somehow miraculously manage to wash her hands after doing so.

[puglove]

Jeremy made numerous mistakes carrying out the murders which ultimately lead to his ridiculous claim of Sheila being the culprit falling apart. Putting the silencer in the cupboard (without cleaning it) as an attempt to hide it rather than leaving it near Sheila's body pretty much sells it for me. There is no plausable reason for Sheila to have done that, let alone have the ability to do so after being shot in the throat! JB's claim that his Father rang him puts him right in the frame, as does his inability to explain why he called his girlfriend after apparently receiving said call before calling the police - and not even 999 at that. Even without the actual evidence to prove his guilt I find it extremely difficult to believe Sheila was capable of the murders when Jeremy was the one planning on setting fire to WHF and trying to sell pictures of his dead sister days after her death.

Nicely rounded up, Jodie. The biggest mistake that Bamber made was not smearing Ralph's blood on the phone. The call to Julie was a killer, and his behaviour before, during and after the funerals sealed the deal. Then...his feet on Ralph's desk, the disrespect, the mad selling of anything valuable, and the fact that he was "too busy" to attend the memorial.

So shabby.

[puglove]

Nicely rounded up, Jodie. The biggest mistake that Bamber made was not smearing Ralph's blood on the phone. The call to Julie was a killer, and his behaviour before, during and after the funerals sealed the deal. Then...his feet on Ralph's desk, the disrespect, the mad selling of anything valuable, and the fact that he was "too busy" to attend the memorial.

So shabby.

And, of course, the pathetic, dry-eyed faux grief at his parent's funeral. That he tried to record, but it didn't tape. And he was so pissed off about that.

But he salved his conscience by celebrating with champagne and lobster.

What a guy.