Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.

[Alice Purjorick]

I'm not suggesting they tested the twins that night, but when it became apparent that a crime had most likely been committed don't you think they should have at least considered the possibility that the twins who were in the room at the time might have been interfered with in some way?

The current governing document, dated sometime in July 2008, makes reference to "what if any crime has been committed".
So when in your opinion did it become "apparent that a crime had most likely been committed".
The experts are deliberating on that to this day.

[Alfie]

Why?

The Lisbon CSI team tested for anaesthetics on Madeleine's bed on 4 May 2007 and found none.

And while I accept the gassing story was on Richard and Judy prior to May 2007, and so may have been a source for the McCanns, there is also the issue of whether the Lisbon CSI team 1) should have been aware of this tale and 2) should have conducted tests beyond that which they carried out.

The team was not in communication with the McCanns, as the McCanns had gone to Portimão re statements.

And the McCanns raised sedation (or whatever) with the FLO's after the CSI team had departed.

There are times in this forum when threads take on somewhat unreal properties, and it strikes me this is one of them.

The McCanns left the twins in Luz on 4 May.  One assumes that was because the twins were fine, as in showing no sign of having been drugged.  To imply otherwise would be to libel the McCanns.

There was no insistence that the twins should be tested.  Presumably because the twins were fine.

This potentially key piece of information was not entered into statements on 4 May or 10 May.  To suggest 'would', 'could', 'might', 'ought to', 'possibly' is to libel a wide range of people, including the McCanns, other members of the T7, one or more helpers on the night, one or more official translators, several PJ officers, possibly some GNR officers and possibly the FLO team.

Bear in mind, this entire thread is hanging off a sensationalist headline in a tabloid newspaper dating to a time when the picture was about as clear as mud.

Why not?  The issue of whether or not the children were sedated soon became a hot topic in the weeks following Madeleine's disappearance, so what was stopping them running a few tests to rule it out or rule it in?

[Alfie]

The current governing document, dated sometime in July 2008, makes reference to "what if any crime has been committed".
So when in your opinion did it become "apparent that a crime had most likely been committed".
The experts are deliberating on that to this day.

Oh do please take your pedantry elsewhere.  Of course a crime had most likely been committed unless you actually think the police were ever seriously considering (after the initial searches) the likelihood of the child wandering off alone and falling down a hole or being carried off by a sea eagle?

[G-Unit]

And then when it quickly becomes apparent the child didn't then what?

Do you really need others to talk you through how such an investigation progresses? A lot of it's common sense, and pouncing on children to test for sedation makes no sense unless there's a reason to believe they have been sedated.

What evidence did the PJ uncover in May 2007 which suggested the remaining children may have been given something to make them sleep?

Please don't say deep sleep because there's no evidence the PJ knew they were supposedly sleeping too deeply because no-one told them.

[ShiningInLuz]

Why not?  The issue of whether or not the children were sedated soon became a hot topic in the weeks following Madeleine's disappearance, so what was stopping them running a few tests to rule it out or rule it in?

I have been asking repeatedly when this story entered the public domain, so far without a response. May I therefore ask when this 'hot topicness' emerged and is there some idea of the origin?  I am asking because there is precious little on it in the PJ Files, and the earliest relevant statements I can see is by two GNR officers some months later.  Presumably this was because the issue was then in the public domain.

No one, beyond Kate in her book, seems to mention passing this crucial evidence to the Portuguese police authorities.  No one in the GNR recalls Kate's message.  The FLO officers do not mention passing questions on to the PJ, merely that the McCanns raised a couple.

Taking statements from the GNR months later is consistent with not knowing the 'drugged' route until then.  It is inconsistent with knowing about the possibility in early May.

And I'm not going to get involved in a debate about whether it was then too late to conduct tests on the twins.

The Lisbon CSI team carried out the test they thought relevant and found nothing to support anaesthetics.  I cannot for the life of me see why this would lead the Portuguese authorities to conduct whatever 'tests' on the twins.

[jassi]

Even if it had been found that the twins had been sedated in some way, what would this have proved?

[Alfie]

I have been asking repeatedly when this story entered the public domain, so far without a response. May I therefore ask when this 'hot topicness' emerged and is there some idea of the origin?  I am asking because there is precious little on it in the PJ Files, and the earliest relevant statements I can see is by two GNR officers some months later.  Presumably this was because the issue was then in the public domain.

No one, beyond Kate in her book, seems to mention passing this crucial evidence to the Portuguese police authorities.  No one in the GNR recalls Kate's message.  The FLO officers do not mention passing questions on to the PJ, merely that the McCanns raised a couple.

Taking statements from the GNR months later is consistent with not knowing the 'drugged' route until then.  It is inconsistent with knowing about the possibility in early May.

And I'm not going to get involved in a debate about whether it was then too late to conduct tests on the twins.

The Lisbon CSI team carried out the test they thought relevant and found nothing to support anaesthetics.  I cannot for the life of me see why this would lead the Portuguese authorities to conduct whatever 'tests' on the twins.

Let's look at it from a different perspective then -  the online slaggers and gossips were speculating very early on that the children had been sedated by their parents, so as a concept the sedation of the children was a very hot topic at the time.  The PJ suspected the parents, knew they left them unattended, believed Madeleine had died somehow and her death covered up by her parents - why wouldn't they have considered misuse of drugs as a possible factor in the case?  Were the PJ not as clever at thinking outside of the box as the armchair detectives?

[ShiningInLuz]

Let's look at it from a different perspective then -  the online slaggers and gossips were speculating very early on that the children had been sedated by their parents, so as a concept the sedation of the children was a very hot topic at the time.  The PJ suspected the parents, knew they left them unattended, believed Madeleine had died somehow and her death covered up by her parents - why wouldn't they have considered misuse of drugs as a possible factor in the case?  Were the PJ not as clever at thinking outside of the box as the armchair detectives?

I think the key phrase is "online slaggers and gossips".  If you are correct in this respect, I am aware of many a scurrilous rumour that appears to have surfaced in this manner, none of which has, AFAIK, entered the PJ Files.

I don't believe the PJ sat around thinking up hoops they could make the McCanns jump through, at least not until the doggies and the FSS seemed to provide a line of enquiry to be pursued.

I am not sure what the process was for getting the twins tested 1) when the Lisbon CSI team tested for and found no anaesthetics and 2) the nearest thing to 'solid evidence' was a couple of GNR officers stating the twins did not react to being relocated.

Despite what many think or assert, there is ample evidence in the PJ Files to show that legal process was being followed regarding house searches, car searches, obtaining DNA samples, collecting and analysing phone traffic.  The PJ did not conduct such processes illegally, though I have seen criticism of them for not house breaking etc.

In the complete absence of evidence that the PJ knew of potential drugging and failed to act, I really can't see why anyone expects them to know that people like us think a test on the twins would be beneficial.

[Mr Gray]

I have been asking repeatedly when this story entered the public domain, so far without a response. May I therefore ask when this 'hot topicness' emerged and is there some idea of the origin?  I am asking because there is precious little on it in the PJ Files, and the earliest relevant statements I can see is by two GNR officers some months later.  Presumably this was because the issue was then in the public domain.

No one, beyond Kate in her book, seems to mention passing this crucial evidence to the Portuguese police authorities.  No one in the GNR recalls Kate's message.  The FLO officers do not mention passing questions on to the PJ, merely that the McCanns raised a couple.

Taking statements from the GNR months later is consistent with not knowing the 'drugged' route until then.  It is inconsistent with knowing about the possibility in early May.

And I'm not going to get involved in a debate about whether it was then too late to conduct tests on the twins.

The Lisbon CSI team carried out the test they thought relevant and found nothing to support anaesthetics.  I cannot for the life of me see why this would lead the Portuguese authorities to conduct whatever 'tests' on the twins.

What tests did the lisbon csi carry out

[faithlilly]

Let's look at it from a different perspective then -  the online slaggers and gossips were speculating very early on that the children had been sedated by their parents, so as a concept the sedation of the children was a very hot topic at the time.  The PJ suspected the parents, knew they left them unattended, believed Madeleine had died somehow and her death covered up by her parents - why wouldn't they have considered misuse of drugs as a possible factor in the case?  Were the PJ not as clever at thinking outside of the box as the armchair detectives?

Cite please.

[Alfie]

Even if it had been found that the twins had been sedated in some way, what would this have proved?

It would have proved nothing but it would have been an important clue don't you think?

[jassi]

It would have proved nothing but it would have been an important clue don't you think?

Clue to what ?

If sedation was a fact, then it could only be by parents or an abductor, who may or may not exist.
 Given that it would be impossible to prove either option, how would that take anything forward?

[Alice Purjorick]

Oh do please take your pedantry elsewhere.  Of course a crime had most likely been committed unless you actually think the police were ever seriously considering (after the initial searches) the likelihood of the child wandering off alone and falling down a hole or being carried off by a sea eagle?

Is that your best shot? "I Alfie know a bloody sight better than two police forces". I remain unconvinced.
Is the Sea Eagle indigenous to the Algarve?

p.s. I will post against your posts within forum rules until Admin tell me I can't. You know what to do if you don't like it. Your huffing and puffing is singularly unimpressive.

[ShiningInLuz]

What tests did the lisbon csi carry out

Kindly do some of your own donkey work once in a while.  There is only one report on file from the 4 May 2007 Lisbon CSI team.

[Mr Gray]

Kindly do some of your own donkey work once in a while.  There is only one report on file from the 4 May 2007 Lisbon CSI team.

So once again no cite