Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.

[Holly Goodhead]

They didn't lock the front door.  It could be opened from the inside but not from the outside without a key.

So potentially MM could have 'woke and wandered' via the front door adjacent to the car park?

[Robittybob1]

Thanks.  So when the parents left they locked the front door and left the key inside in which case, in theory MM could have opened the door?  Even if she was unable to reach she might have fetched something to climb onto?  And obviously if the cleaner was able to enter when the door was supposedly locked with the key in it then others might well have been able to do the same.

But the McCanns didn't leave the key in the lock. 
read http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7852.msg537155#msg537155

[pathfinder73]

I haven't got to the part in the book re the stain on the pj top but this could be significant. 

As we know from all the high profile cases in the UK unfortunately pedophiles are not creepy looking men hanging around school playgrounds looking furtive and therefore easily identified and avoided.  They are everywhere and look and act normally.  I have often wondered whether one of the guests at the Ocean club had a suppressed unhealthy sexual interest in children which came to the surface seeing young children running around in swimwear etc.  Then knowing MM was home alone and accessible he (most likely a he but could be a she) entered the apartment and started off maybe just masturbating around MM (stain on pj top?) and things then got out of hand.  Maybe she woke and the perp realised she might recognize him and was of an age when she could relay verbally to her parents what had happened.  In a panic she was murdered and removed. 

From what little I know of this case at the moment I think the abduction theory is the least likely.  Either something along the lines of the above or woke and wondered and came to some harm.

The stain was allegedly found the morning after Gerry said David Payne checked on the children.

On Wednesday night, 2 May 2007, as well as he and his wife, he thinks that David Payne also went to his apartment to confirm that his children were well, not having reported to him any abnormal situation with the children.  https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm

[Holly Goodhead]

Would Madeleine have put whatever it was she used to reach the door away after she'd opened the door?   There is nothing that says there was something near the front door that Madeleine stood on to reach the door to unlock it.

Madeleine didn't put her shoes on,  she didn't take Cuddle Cat.   

Then there is the open window.

Yes I agree if MM did stand on something it would mean she would have to have returned it to its rightful position which seems unlikely.  But something may have been in the vicinity or she may have been able to reach to open the door.  Or for whatever reason(s) KM may have removed any such object as she wanted to sell the abduction theory.

If an abductor entered through the window then surely he/she would look for an easier escape route than through the window carrying MM?  The only way I can see this working is if any such abductor had an accomplice and was able to pass MM to someone outside.

Is it a given MM would bother with shoes and Cuddle Cat?   

[jassi]

Yes I agree if MM did stand on something it would mean she would have to have returned it to its rightful position which seems unlikely.  But something may have been in the vicinity or she may have been able to reach to open the door.  Or for whatever reason(s) KM may have removed any such object as she wanted to sell the abduction theory.

If an abductor entered through the window then surely he/she would look for an easier escape route than through the window carrying MM?  The only way I can see this working is if any such abductor had an accomplice and was able to pass MM to someone outside.

Is it a given MM would bother with shoes and Cuddle Cat?   

Would she have been able to locate her shoes in the dark ?
Its not as if they would have been at the side of her bed - IMO

[Holly Goodhead]

But the McCanns didn't leave the key in the lock. 
read http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7852.msg537155#msg537155

Ok so what is the exact position with this door/key?  Do we know the height of the internal handle and MM's height?  Was it fingerprinted? 

[Holly Goodhead]

The stain was allegedly found the morning after Gerry said David Payne checked on the children.

On Wednesday night, 2 May 2007, as well as he and his wife, he thinks that David Payne also went to his apartment to confirm that his children were well, not having reported to him any abnormal situation with the children.  https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm

Thanks.  I really need to read all the ws's carefully.  Afaik the Payne's did not leave the table on 3rd May?  They were not part of this bizarre checking arrangement instead relying on a hi-tec monitor?

[pathfinder73]

The Payne's used a baby monitor.

1485 "Did you actually offer to check any of the children' I know you say that you didn't have to check yours.'

 Reply "Yeah, no I never, I never did offer to check. Err there, as much as I you know, know, knew all the children well I err I probably wouldn't have felt, you know, bizarrely I wouldn't have felt quite comfortable checking them. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

Very bizarre coming from a man who was comfortable bathing other children 

[Robittybob1]

The Payne's used a baby monitor.

1485 "Did you actually offer to check any of the children' I know you say that you didn't have to check yours.'

 Reply "Yeah, no I never, I never did offer to check. Err there, as much as I you know, know, knew all the children well I err I probably wouldn't have felt, you know, bizarrely I wouldn't have felt quite comfortable checking them. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

Very bizarre coming from a man who was comfortable bathing other children 

Is that a crime?

[Lace]

The Payne's used a baby monitor.

1485 "Did you actually offer to check any of the children' I know you say that you didn't have to check yours.'

 Reply "Yeah, no I never, I never did offer to check. Err there, as much as I you know, know, knew all the children well I err I probably wouldn't have felt, you know, bizarrely I wouldn't have felt quite comfortable checking them. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

Very bizarre coming from a man who was comfortable bathing other children 

Was it just DP?   Or all the fathers?   

[Holly Goodhead]

The Payne's used a baby monitor.

1485 "Did you actually offer to check any of the children' I know you say that you didn't have to check yours.'

 Reply "Yeah, no I never, I never did offer to check. Err there, as much as I you know, know, knew all the children well I err I probably wouldn't have felt, you know, bizarrely I wouldn't have felt quite comfortable checking them. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

Very bizarre coming from a man who was comfortable bathing other children 

MO also makes the point that up until the Thursday night he also did not feel comfortable checking the McCann children as he didn't feel he knew them or KM/GM up until that point.  He had apparently been for a run with KM during that day from memory and it seems he felt he got to know her better.  He said they run along the beach together and likened it to Bay Watch which I thought was rather an immature thing to say given the circumstances.

In his WS he also refers to a famous child psychology experiment referred to as the 'Strange Situation' by Mary Ainsworth.  He does not refer to the name of the experiment or the psychologist but this is what he is referring to.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strange_situation

[The General]

MO also makes the point that up until the Thursday night he also did not feel comfortable checking the McCann children as he didn't feel he knew them or KM/GM up until that point.  He had apparently been for a run with KM during that day from memory and it seems he felt he got to know her better.  He said they run along the beach together and likened it to Bay Watch which I thought was rather an immature thing to say given the circumstances.

In his WS he also refers to a famous child psychology experiment referred to as the 'Strange Situation' by Mary Ainsworth.  He does not refer to the name of the experiment or the psychologist but this is what he is referring to.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strange_situation

I mentioned a few days ago that I thought this forum needed a 'reset'. I think you're unwittingly providing it.
Keep at it.

[Holly Goodhead]

I mentioned a few days ago that I thought this forum needed a 'reset'. I think you're unwittingly providing it.
Keep at it.

Thanks.   

[pathfinder73]

Is that a crime?

Possibly.



The first time I heard of the terrible news about Madeleine's disappearance through the radio, my thoughts went immediately to Dave.

[sadie]

They didn't lock the front door.  It could be opened from the inside but not from the outside without a key.

I think that answer to a newcomer, such as Holly is misleading, Angelo. 

It is only half the story, cos the door automatically locked against those out side.  For anyone trying to open the front door from outside it was impossible.  For outsiders it was locked.

However, as you say Gerry did not double lock the front door.  It was like the British Yale locks in that when you slammed the door to, the lock automatically activated and prevented access for  those outside.



To all intents and purposes, the door was locked and an intruder would not be able to enter that way, without a key


So who provided the key ?   Someone from O.C ?