Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.

[ferryman]

KNOCK-OUT GAS ON OVERNIGHT TRAINS
train wheel 3

Atul and Smriti Shah experienced it first-hand. “It happened during the night,” they concluded. “The entire compartment was sprayed with some sort of gas that knocked us out. Then our suitcase was slowly extracted from under our seat, the lock twisted loose and, with all the time in the world, the suitcase was looted.”

Atul and Smriti live with their small daughters in Mumbai, India, where railway is the customary way to crisscross the country. For the occasion of a relative’s marriage, the family traveled to the town of Kanpur, in Uttar Pradesh. As tradition dictates, they brought along their finest clothes and jewelry to wear to the many matrimonial celebrations and ceremonies. As a high-caste woman from a wealthy family, now married to a successful businessman, Smriti carried an enviable display of gold and diamonds.

“She had diamonds on her fingers and in her nose and ears,” Atul explained with pride, “and gold bangles and necklaces. Also, she wore the good-luck vermilion mark on her forehead that Indians always wear when traveling away from home.”

After the wedding and family visits, the Shahs boarded the train for the twenty-hour journey home. They had one suitcase, but it was a large one: fifty kilos, Atul estimated. It contained all the family’s finery, including Smriti’s jewelry, and had a small padlock on the zipper tabs. Atul forced the suitcase under Smriti’s seat in the train compartment, where it was tightly lodged. They did not open the suitcase for the duration of the journey.

The Shahs boarded in the evening, had a meal packed by Smriti’s mother, and settled down for the night.

“The strange thing is that none of us woke up during the night,” Smriti told me. “Even the children slept the night through, and they never do.”

She remembers a vague sensation of bitterness in her mouth during the night, then the desire for water. But she remembers too the lethargy she felt, the heaviness of her limbs.

Food- and drink-drugging has long been a problem on trains, but could knockout gas really be in a thief’s arsenal? In my early research, doctors had doubted the likelihood of a thief acquiring the right gas and the victims not waking from the smell. I went back to the doctors and this time they all agreed it could happen. Chloroform is often used in primitive surgical conditions and has no smell at all, some said. An anesthesiologist mentioned Halothane, which would be readily available from any surgical facility or veterinarian. Halothane has a slight odor but not enough to wake an already-sleeping person.

“Within twenty or thirty minutes,” Dr. Jared Kniffen told me, “someone could be in a deep enough sleep so that you could enter the room without his awareness. The danger of this is you could kill someone if too much were used. There’s a second possibility—a gas called Cevoflurane. It’s odorless, but much more difficult to obtain.”

But wouldn’t the robber himself be knocked out? I asked.

“There are ways to avoid that,” Dr. Kniffen said. “A certain travel supply house sells a smoke hood that gives twenty minutes of oxygen.” It’s meant for use in escaping from a burning building, but a clever thief might employ one for another use.

It sounds too sophisticated to me, too troublesome and risky. But if the reward were a treasure chest like Smriti Shah’s, it must be worth one thousand times the risk of simply snagging a laptop from a business traveler.

Despite the Shahs’ conviction, gassing on an overnight train is only a remote risk; my paranoid apprehension on our journey to Prague was out of proportion. Breaking into and stealing from compartments is a real risk though, and so is food- and drink-drugging. Nembitol, scopolamine, and benzodiazepine are the drugs most commonly slipped into food or drink, but only after the thief builds trust and confidence with the mark.

[ferryman]

No. She said she checked for some sign of life 'several times' when she 'wandered' into the bedroom. She didn't check for signs of sedation, despite her fears.

Having established that the twins were alive and not in mortal danger, she was satisfied that there was no medical emergency.

The imperative, then, became an investigative one.

[slartibartfast]

In your opinion.    IMO the fact they brought it up with the FLO's on the 5th was because  the concerns they mentioned on the 3rd had not resulted in any feedback from the PJ.   I also believe the language barrier really worked against them in those first few hours.

I don't believe Kate thought they had been sedated with a potentially lethal drug - neither did any of the other doctors - otherwise they would have taken more drastic action.    The fact that the twins were sleeping soundly was normal for them anyway - IOW they were not light sleepers -  which could explain why they didn't wake up.  That would influence the level of her concern IMO.

Add to that the terrible state of abject terror and anxiety both parents were in - worsening by the minute, then any idea that they should have been thinking calmly and logically - believing as they did that their daughter had just been abducted, is so unrealistic it's off the scale.    They would be consumed with fear for their missing daughter.  No parent could think straight in those horrendous circumstances.  Their heads would be all over the place.

On the other hand there were policemen there who did find it strange that the twins didn't wake up.   Those officers were not in a state of shock and anxiety and IMO should have reported their observations to their superiors asap -  who may have suggested to the parents that immediate testing was appropriate.

The fact that there were no formal instructions or guidance available to the police on what to do in these circumstances was unfortunate from all points of view IMO.    I sincerely hope that state of affairs has since been addressed.

AIMHO

Cite for the 3rd?

[Alfie]

No. She said she checked for some sign of life 'several times' when she 'wandered' into the bedroom. She didn't check for signs of sedation, despite her fears.

You've lost me I'm afraid.  How do you check vital signs differently when it's for sedation?

[slartibartfast]

You've lost me I'm afraid.  How do you check vital signs differently when it's for sedation?

You try and wake the subject?

[Alfie]

You try and wake the subject?

And Kate McCann did not?

[slartibartfast]

And Kate McCann did not?

I find no evidence of it.

[Alfie]

I find no evidence of it.

And where have you been looking for this evidence?  I guess moving the children from their cots to another apartment, and from cot to lap doesn't constitute any sort of an attempt to rouse them.  And because Kate McCann fails to tell us whether or not she tried shaking them awake this tells us....what precisely?

[slartibartfast]

And where have you been looking for this evidence?  I guess moving the children from their cots to another apartment, and from cot to lap doesn't constitute any sort of an attempt to rouse them.  And because Kate McCann fails to tell us whether or not she tried shaking them awake this tells us....what precisely?

There is no "I tried to wake them" anywhere.

[Alfie]

There is no "I tried to wake them" anywhere.

So if she didn't try to wake them what conclusions do you think we should we draw from this?

[G-Unit]

And where have you been looking for this evidence?  I guess moving the children from their cots to another apartment, and from cot to lap doesn't constitute any sort of an attempt to rouse them.  And because Kate McCann fails to tell us whether or not she tried shaking them awake this tells us....what precisely?

Moving the children a couple of hours after becoming concerned about them can't be described as attempting to rouse them.

Kate McCann placed her hands on their backs to check for chest movement, she says. Fiona Payne reports no shaking.

If she had roused them she would have known if they were sedated or not, and would have had no need to wonder or to spread rumours.

[Alfie]

Thanks for this.  Now we have some evidence that the concept predated May 2007.

Not being a Richard & Judy fan, I personally would not have seen the show.  I wonder if it related specifically to motor-homes or went beyond that?

Don't bother answering that.  My life is too short to worry about gas being used in 5A with no smell by the time Kate arrived and seemingly no after effects in two very young children.  We would need to get into safe-on-children, non-smelling, readily available gases, which I think is stretching things too far.

I know you told me not to answer you but I thought this might be of interest.  Before I post it I am not doing so to support the gas theory, I do hope that's understood by all sentient beings who may be reading this.

GAS GANG KO'D US ALL AND LIFTED ME OFF BED TO GET THE WALLET IN MY JEANS
EXCLUSIVE: HOLIDAYMAKERS TELL HOW RAIDERS RANSACKED THEIR VILLA

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BYCHARLIE GALL
00:00, 23 AUG 2006
NEWS
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GAS raid victim Paul Duff told last night how robbers knocked out his family in their holiday villa.

Fish merchant Paul, 34, had his wallet taken from underneath him as he slept in the Spanish villa.


When he came to, he realised he had slept for hours longer than usual and the entire house had been ransacked, with jewellery, money and gadgets missing.

Locals told him they believed his party, from Aberdeen, were the victims of a gang who pumped anaesthetic gas into the villa's air-conditioning system to leave them lpless.

Last night, as police in Mazarron, southern Spain, confirmed they were investigating, Paul described his horror at the raid, which happened as his children, aged six and nine, slept in the villa in the village of Camposol.

He said: "We'd been out for a meal to celebrate my birthday and my sister-in-law Jackie's, which is on the same day

"As the kids are still young, we weren't out late and returned about 10pm.

"Once we got the children to bed, we had another bottle of beer and were all in bed by about 1 1pm.

"The following morning, I was up first. As a fish merchant, I normally start work at about 5.30am.

"I thought it was strange that I'd slept until around 10.15am. I don't think I've slept that long in my entire life. I could see the front door was open and as I got closer to the door I noticed my jeans lying on the doorstep.

"My wallet was on top of them. My cards were inside but all my money was gone.

"When I went to bed, I'd been lying on top of the covers with my legs across my jeans. Whoever broke in must have come into the bedroom and lifted my legs to get my jeans and rifle my wallet.

"When my wife Pauline came through, she was complaining of a stinging headache. Jackie had a sore throat.

"I felt OK but the children were crying.

"We then noticed the villa had been ransacked. My son Hayden's PlayStation and all his games were gone.

"My wife's eternity ring was gone. I'd lost a diamond signet ring and a chain. Our digital cameras were missing and a lot of our spending money."

Paul and Pauline, 33, and kids Hayden, nine, and six-year-old Symone were staying at a friend's villa in Camposol, near the Costa Blanca.

They were joined by Pauline's sister, legal secretary Jackie Humphrey, 32, and her fiance, oil worker Mike Ogston, 34.

The party lost thousands of pounds worth of valuables in the raid.

Their ordeal mirrors an attack on former Arsenal captain Patrick Vieira and his family near Cannes in May.

As word spread of the break-in, Paul's neighbours told them there was no doubt they had been gassed.

He said: "The neighbours told us we'd definitely been victims of some kind of sleeping gas being fed into the air-conditioning."

Jackie, who works for a major legal firm in Aberdeen, said: "I had a dry throat, sore eyes and felt as if I had a hangover. We felt in a bit of a daze all day."

Paul and Mike drove to report the break-in to the Guardia Civil in Puerto de Mazarron, taking an interpreter with them.

Paul said: "We have the paperwork to prove we reported the break-in to the police. But we haven't heard anything since and I'm doubtful if we will.

"People in the local pub told us there was supposed to be a Colombian mob operating in the area.

"Locals suspect they might have been behind the break-in but who knows? It ruined our holiday. For the rest of the fortnight our kids slept in with me at night. "And we didn't put the air-conditioning on again."

Yesterday, a spokeswoman for the Guardia Civil in Puerto de Mazarron confirmed the family's ordeal.

She said: "Investigations into a reported incident on July 11 are continuing."

Using gas in burglaries was dubbed home-jacking when it first surfaced in wealthy areas of the south of France in the 1980s.

But the break-ins were usually done to order - with the targets the keys and paperwork of luxury cars - and the victims were rich locals.

Robbers have also pumped in gas, often colourless nitrous oxide, used by doctors and dentists as an anaesthetic, to knock out victims in camper vans and HGVs parked overnight in motorway service stations in France and Spain.

The victims are unconscious long enough to enable the thieves to breach security systems and ransack the targeted property.

Last night, a British businessman who has been based in Spain for the last 40 years said the latest incident was the first time he had heard of tourists being targeted.

He said: "This just shows how advanced and sophisticated the criminal is becoming.

"The Mazarron area is heavily populated with eastern Europeans who have been responsible for a spate of muggings and robberies on tourists.

"But this is the first time I've heard of gas being used on holidaymakers."

'The kids slept withus for the rest of the tripandwedidn'tput the air-conditioning on'

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, there we have a story, about a gas attack on a holiday villa in Southern Spain, in a Scottish newspaper a few months before Madeleine disappeared. 

[Alfie]

Moving the children a couple of hours after becoming concerned about them can't be described as attempting to rouse them.

Kate McCann placed her hands on their backs to check for chest movement, she says. Fiona Payne reports no shaking.

If she had roused them she would have known if they were sedated or not, and would have had no need to wonder or to spread rumours.

If they had been roused then that would confirm they had not been sedated?  Where does that leave the theory that Madeleine, having been sedated, dragged a chair to the patio railings and fell off?

[stephen25000]

Having established that the twins were alive and not in mortal danger, she was satisfied that there was no medical emergency.

The imperative, then, became an investigative one.

You are not a Doctor.

How could the McCann's be sure the children were OK, if  no tests had been carried out.

Unless of course ................

[G-Unit]

You've lost me I'm afraid.  How do you check vital signs differently when it's for sedation?

No vital signs were checked. If you fear sedation you try to rouse the person so you can check their level of responsiveness.