Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.

[Robittybob1]

Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins on the night Madeleine was taken

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1386093/Kate-McCann-Kidnapper-drugged-twins-night-Madeleine-taken.html#ixzz4Tpd4uTpc
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Does the forum think this is really practical?  What would be the point?

A good summary of the issues here:
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/133307/MADELEINE-EXCLUSIVE-All-three-children-drugged
"They are convinced the ­abductor went to the family’s apartment on May 3 2007 fully prepared with sufficient drugs, probably ­chloroform, to knock out all three children.

The fact that Sean and Amelie, then just 18 months old, failed to wake when the alarm was raised, nor even as they were taken to another apartment in the cold night air, has persuaded the detectives that they, too, must have been drugged.

Had the twins been tested for drugs immediately, any ­medication used could have been established, making it easier to identify the kidnapper, but vital time was lost.

Chloroform can be made ­easily and other sedatives, such as the horse tranquilliser ketamine, are commonly in circulation in the criminal underworld.

Even now, however, experts say there may be forensic clues on clothing or bedding which could yield a breakthrough."

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[Robittybob1]

This could be my shortest thread ever for there was nothing really done about Kate's fears that her other two kids had been drugged.  Now I did read that one of the PJ had mentioned that possibility, but that means having to go through a heap of statements again for they didn't say who it was.

I'm thinking if one of the PJ had this suspicion then Amaral himself should have followed up on it.
Will this become the evidence of a coverup?

[Robittybob1]

So I have pasted all the PJ investigator documents (as indexed in the file) into one document and find the first reference to sedatives in file order was the following: a letter from Ricardo Paiva.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SERVICE_INFORMATION.htm#p10p2533-2534
"
2533 to 2534 Service Information from Ricardo Paiva and his observations of the McCann's
10-Processos Vol X Pages 2533 to 2534
10VOLUME_Xa_Page_2533
 
10VOLUME_Xa_Page_2534
 
Processos Vol X

Pages 2533 - 2534

Service Information


Date: 2007/09/03

For : Goncalo Amaral

From Ricardo Paiva, Inspector


Subject: Disappearance of Madeleine McCann

During the course of the ongoing investigation, various personal contacts were made by the undersigned with Kate and Gerald McCann, within my task of serving as communication element between the police and the McCann couple.

Within this context, the undersigned was present during various 'strange' behaviours by the couple, who gradually began to react in a very negative manner to the increased investigative activity carried out by this police force, especially during the use of the English sniffer dogs for detecting cadaver odour, when more evidence arose in the investigation for the hypothesis of the death of Madeleine McCann.


Several times, the McCann couple said that the attention of the police should be maintained focussing on the abduction hypothesis, which, in the couple's opinion, was the only scenario that occurred and that the police should not forget to continue to investigate the suspect Robert Murat.

Strangely, Kate also made several requests, three months after the disappearance of Madeleine, that the police should take blood, hair and nail tests of Madeleine's twin siblings, because, as she said, she remembered that on the day of Madeleine's disappearance, in spite of all the commotion and noise made by the authorities and other persons who were looking for Madeleine in apartment 5A of the OC, the twins never woke up, having been transported to another apartment, they remained asleep, due to which she now presumes that they were under the effect of some sedative drug that a presumed abductor had administered to the three children in order to be able to abduct Madeleine, a situation which Kate refers to being possible according to what she read in a criminal investigation manual given to her by the British authorities, that would have been the procedure of the abductor in the real case involving abduction, rape and murder of the girl.

Today, when the undersigned went to the McCann's temporary residence to notify them of the need to present themselves at the police station to make statements, being able to take their lawyer with them, Kate McCann immediately reacted in a negative manner, making comments such as 'what are my parents going to think?' and 'what is the press going to say when they find out?' and that 'the Portuguese police is under pressure from the government to finish the investigation quickly'.

With regard to Gerald McCann, he constantly insisted in giving the undersigned letters and emails that he was receiving, mostly from psychics and mediums, whom he had selected and which mainly contained information without much credibility about the possible whereabouts of Madeleine and her presumed abductor.

More recently, and even before Kate's interrogation, during a telephone call between Gerald McCann and the undersigned, he made a reference regarding the investigation, that he was certain that the police did not have any proof that could incriminate them with regard to the death of Madeleine McCann and he said that the police were wasting their time in directing the investigation around the parents.

I bring this to your knowledge.


Inspector

Ricardo Paiva

[Robittybob1]

The next reference in file order is very interesting:
2587 to 2602 Letter of facts surrounding the investigation A report by Chief Inspector Tavares de Almeida
10 Processo: VOL ,X, p. 2587 to2602
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm


"The Media enhancement given to the case and their search for information has contributed to an evolution on Madeleine's parents declarations.

All the information that was made public, contributed for the remixing of the story, adapting it to eventual police questions, and to attempts to justify the indicia and consequent proof that was being collected.

Let's see: the media forwarded the hypothesis that the children could have been sedated to be kept asleep and allow some rest to the parents.

Distant in time Kate's father, the grandfather of the minor, Brian Healy, admits to the press that Kate could have administered some medication to the little girl, Calpol, to help the child (children'') to sleep, contrary to what his daughter Kate had stated.

Kate, through the PJ inspector that acted as 'liaison' with the family [NOTE: that is Ricardo Paiva], asked why samples weren't taken from the twins in order to test that hypothesis. She knew well enough at that time, more than 3 months later, that such exam would be inviable.

She went further and said that we ' the investigation ' should verify that the kidnapper had sedated Madeleine, to accomplish the action and he had also sedated the twins 'to consummate the act' however she didn't say that at the right moment.

And we know that the sedatives have timings to act and timings to be expelled, that varies between six and 200 hours.

The medical knowledge of the McCann is enough to know such, even if their professional activity never passed by performing toxicology exams."

The PJ are the detectives and with the clue from Brian Healy they needed to have taken the initiative rather than blaming their errors on Kate's supposed knowledge.

[Robittybob1]

Now I'm trying to find the references to Brian Healy admitting Kate might have used Calpol on the kids.
Some clues here: https://madeleinemccannthetruth.wordpress.com/2011/10/25/the-media-the-twist-and-the-investigation/

"Reporter

Is it possible that Kate with her medical background ,might have, wanted to help Madeleine to go to sleep that night?

Brian

Not at all.

Reporter

Even out of kindness, she she certainly would not have given her….

Brian

Not even out of kindness, I think they may have used Calpol like most mothers do….(inaudible). first and foremost they would’nt have done that."

Is that an admission or a denial?  Is it admitting the use of calpol but nothing stronger?

The timing of the article is in the same time frame as Ricardo's statement and not in some distant past. 

"Madeleine McCann’s grandfather has told Sky News that he is distraught that his daughter, Madeleine’s mother Kate McCann, has been questioned as an official suspect in the four-year-old’s disappearance. Brian Healy said it was ‘disgusting’." 

I'm a bit at a loss as to why Ricardo is trying to say Brian Healy mentioned it earlier.

[Robittybob1]

Gerry McCann admits to taking drugs!

"In part of Gerry McCanns arguido statement of the 7th September 2007 when he was questioned by the Portuguese Police at Portimao Police station, he explains to the officers the exact medicines that they as a family took to Portugal.  For any parent who travels abroad with young children it is quite common practice and definitely not a crime. Gerry McCann states in his interview:

When they travelled on holiday to Portugal they brought several medicines, namely Calpol, Nurofen, for fevers and pains, both for adults and children, Losec for gastric problems that he occasionally suffers from, and an antihistamine called Terfenadine, for hay fever. He did not give any of these medicines or any others to the children while on holiday in Portugal."
Clues were given here:
https://madeleinemccannthetruth.wordpress.com/2011/07/03/calpol-and-nurofen-on-the-mccann-holiday/

[Robittybob1]

Susan Healy in an interview which is reported in this site: http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/kate-mccann-if-weighed-another-3501599

"“Kate and Gerry drugged Madeleine – and their twins, Sean and Amelie – with sedatives.”

“They don’t like taking tablets themselves and the only thing they have ever given their children, if they were teething or had a temperature, is Calpol. They didn’t give them anything that night.”

“Seven children were sleeping in Kate and Gerry’s apartment on the night Madeleine went missing.”

Susan says: “Again, it’s nonsense and I don’t know where this has come from – or why it’s only now it’s been suggested.”"

[stephen25000]

So why oh why were the children never tested at the time.

By the way Rob, the odour of Trichloromethane /Chloroform would linger and a 'trained' anesthetist would know that.

[Robittybob1]

So why oh why were the children never tested at the time.

By the way Rob, the odour of Trichloromethane /Chloroform would linger and a 'trained' anesthetist would know that.

From my experience with anaesthetics I don't think chloroform effects would last for as long as it did to keep the twins asleep through it all.

This person's answer could help but it is not definitive.
https://www.quora.com/How-long-does-chloroform-knock-you-out-for

 "Unlike the movies, chloroform is not fast acting. A soaked rag held over a victim’s face would take up to five minutes to render them unconscious. Once unconscious an individual would require additional applications to remain “under”. The effects of chloroform on a human is proportional to exposure and dosage. Chloroform is not an efficient sedative and its efficacy is dependent on several factors.

body weight
air circulation
strength of solution
Small amounts of chloroform can induce lethargy and disorientation. Increased exposure leads to unconsciousness and an inability to feel pain. This is why chloroform was all the rage in the mid to late 1800’s in the UK. Once applied to a mask the fumes posed a threat to surgeons and attendants. Eventually chloroform was replaced with ether a similar agent used as an anesthetic. Ether had fewer side effects.


Prolonged exposure can cause difficulty breathing, then paralysis, followed by death. From the moment of unconsciousness, there is a generally a 10–15 minute window where a patient is asleep. Once the patient starts regaining consciousness there will be a period of disorientation that can last 20 to 30 minutes and a severe headache lasting hours."


"So why oh why were the children never tested at the time."  That is what we are trying to find out.  I am trying to see who mentions it first, that they find it unusual that the twins sleep through it all.  My next look will be in the GNR statements.

[stephen25000]

From my experience with anaesthetics I don't think chloroform effects would last for as long as it did to keep the twins asleep through it all.

"So why oh why were the children never tested at the time."  That is what we are trying to find out.  I am trying to see who mentions it first, that they find it unusual that the twins sleep through it all.  My next look will be in the GNR statements.

It is also adsorbed by a variety of materials and would linger.

[Robittybob1]

It is also adsorbed by a variety of materials and would linger.

So I tend to think we can rule out chloroform or Trichloromethane.  How would one person administer chloroform or Trichloromethane to three kids at one time?  It sounds impossible.
Kate and the others would have picked up the odour immediately.

[Robittybob1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcjylWzil0k  gives us an idea of the language barrier problem and the importance of translators.

[Robittybob1]

The words calpol, drug, sedate or sedative don't appear in the GNR officer statements.
"twins" or siblings appears several times but never any concern as to their wellbeing.

"He did not enter the room because he was told, he does not remember by whom, that the twins were sleeping."
"He was told that the twins were still sleeping in the bedroom. "
"knowing these to be, the respective parents, and two siblings, twins, minors, whose name do not need to be clarified;"
". Inside, the deponent encountered the mother and two siblings of the missing minor; "
"3. The patrol found the situation to be somewhat strange as the way the child had disappeared was not clear as she had been sleeping inside the apartment with the twins, whilst her parents were out dining 50 metres away in the same resort, and therefore the officers contacted the GNR post commander at 23.17, to tell him that the parents were holding the hypothesis that the child had been abducted."

[Robittybob1]

So it comes down to whether Kate asked Silvia to mention it to the GNR or the PJ.

Looking at Silvia's statement again something significant appears:
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SILVIA_BATISTA.htm "At a certain time, after the arrival of the PJ elements, the parents removed the twins from the beds in which they were still sleeping and took them to the first floor flat.
At the request of Kate she (the witness) to remove their puppets, drink and a blanket that she took to the first floor flat. Only the mattresses remained."

Silvia removed their baby bottles which would be the ideal method of administering any drugs.
Where it says "drink" you could easily insert the word "drugs" and make the sentence read "At the request of Kate she (the witness) to remove their puppets, drugs and a blanket that she took to the first floor flat. Only the mattresses remained."

It was a crying shame the baby bottles were not tested for finger prints before Silvia touched them.
Does Kate recall asking Silvia to touch the baby bottles?

Nothing in Fiona's rogatory about moving.

[Robittybob1]

I realised the flaw in the PJ argument as I was driving today.  Tavares talks about Brian Healy's distant past comment.  Does nothing about it and then complains when Kate brings it up again at the time she is made an arguido.  I'll find the reference and refresh your memory.

Distant in time Kate's father, the grandfather of the minor, Brian Healy, admits to the press that Kate could have administered some medication to the little girl, Calpol, to help the child (children'') to sleep, contrary to what his daughter Kate had stated.

Kate, through the PJ inspector that acted as 'liaison' with the family [NOTE: that is Ricardo Paiva], asked why samples weren't taken from the twins in order to test that hypothesis. She knew well enough at that time, more than 3 months later, that such exam would be inviable.

If that was the case why wasn't it followed up by the PJ earlier?  I now see the problem as being they would have had to declare their hand that they were thinking Kate had done it, for would they be able take hair samples from the kids without her thinking they were after her and no longer looking for Madeleine.  Her whole relationship with Ricardo would have been different after that.  Was she a bit naive to think that Ricardo was a true friend and was going to keep the gossip confidential?
Little did he know that she had wanted these tests done from the very beginning.  Did he know or not?
Ricardo Paiva is thoroughly discussed in Kate's book when first introducing the PJ liaison officer.
"We also become quite friendly with Ricardo Paiva ...."