Author Topic: Portugal Supreme Court: The McCanns are not cleared in Maddie Case  (Read 138465 times)

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Offline Robittybob1

Re: Portugal Supreme Court: The McCanns are not cleared in Maddie Case
« Reply #60 on: February 09, 2017, 10:16:49 AM »
and  sadly the portugese law courts clearly believe maddie is dead dont they? which isnt unrealistic after  10 years without a trace
But that does not tell us when she died or by what means.

As there is an on going criminal investigation, it is a bit premature to predict the outcome.
Has someone predicted an outcome?
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Offline carlymichelle

Re: Portugal Supreme Court: The McCanns are not cleared in Maddie Case
« Reply #61 on: February 09, 2017, 10:16:54 AM »
As there is an on going criminal investigation, it is a bit premature to predict the outcome.

i agree  its up to portugese law/courts  isnt it

Offline jassi

Re: Portugal Supreme Court: The McCanns are not cleared in Maddie Case
« Reply #62 on: February 09, 2017, 10:18:28 AM »
But that does not tell us when she died or by what means.
Has someone predicted an outcome?

Read post 59
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline xtina

Re: Portugal Supreme Court: The McCanns are not cleared in Maddie Case
« Reply #63 on: February 09, 2017, 10:25:53 AM »
That could have been a misunderstanding.  I never thought they were cleared, so I was surprised that was part of the Supreme Court case.  Everyone still has the right to be presumed innocent till proven guilty but you seem to advocate presumed guilty till proven innocent.

no... just happy that both side of the coin is being shown ..................

like as before only abduction was reported ...

now thanks to the persistence of G A ....[and others]...shown another side to what could have happened to maddie ....

G A is a legend ....
Always listen to both sides of the story before you judge.

The first storyteller you will always find has modified the story, for there benefit BE WISE.

Offline carlymichelle

Re: Portugal Supreme Court: The McCanns are not cleared in Maddie Case
« Reply #64 on: February 09, 2017, 10:30:48 AM »
no... just happy that both side of the coin is being shown ..................

like as before only abduction was reported ...

now thanks to the persistence of G A ....[and others]...shown another side to what could have happened to maddie ....

G A is a legend ....

maybe the mcanns and supporters  understand now what the mcanns/they have put amaral though over the  years

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Portugal Supreme Court: The McCanns are not cleared in Maddie Case
« Reply #65 on: February 09, 2017, 11:13:11 AM »
I have had to delete a number of posts from this thread already.

Until the full judgement is translated into English, please be very careful about what you write on this sensitive topic.

Unless the full judgement states or implies that Madeleine is dead, or presumed dead, the Daily Mail headline looks to me to be libellous.  Presumably the DM ran it past a lawyer, but the newspapers have got it wrong big time before.

Repeating a libel is libellous.  Tread very carefully.

We all know the archiving report did not conclude that Madeleine was dead.

I suspect this thread is going to get pruned severely when an English version of the full judgement becomes available.
What's up, old man?

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Portugal Supreme Court: The McCanns are not cleared in Maddie Case
« Reply #66 on: February 09, 2017, 11:47:10 AM »
sections of it.  they could have put anything in there for when is anyone proved innocent of anything?
It seems that if the Mccanns had a strong alibi that might be considered proof of innocence, but when a parent goes to check on their kids alone, that moment is an unsupported alibi OK it is for a few minutes at the most, but do they really think it is possible to commit the crime in those time intervals?

Last independent sighting of Maddy was at 5:30 not on checks many hours later. You can believe what you want but that doesn't mean it's the truth.

3 - The re-enactment, within the LOR, shall take place probably on May 15, 2008, between 5.30 p.m. and 11 p.m., thus covering the time period before dinner, dinner time and about an hour after having checked that the child had gone missing;

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RE_ENACTMENT.htm
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline xtina

Re: Portugal Supreme Court: The McCanns are not cleared in Maddie Case
« Reply #67 on: February 09, 2017, 12:09:52 PM »

sils quote
Unless the full judgement states or implies that Madeleine is dead, or presumed dead,




page 11

..."the law protects, however, not only that personal feeling of own worth, which can call up the internal honour, but above the projection in the social consciousness of all the personal values of each individual, which can be called external honour : the qualities a person needs to be respected in a social environment, including the good name and the reputation, the social consideration" [ op. cit. p. 587] .

The protection of the rights of the claimants to their good name and reputation is, in this case, closely related to the presumption of innocence.

The claimants Gerald and Kate McCann were made arguidos (formal suspects) in the criminal investigation, a status that had the function to guarantee their rights (though not being interpreted this way by the general public) and ceased with the closure of the investigation having the dispatch (AG) report concluded :"It has not been possible to obtain any piece of evidence that would allow for a average man, under the light of the criteria of logics, of normality and of the general rules of experience, to formulate any lucid, sensate, serious and honest conclusion about the circumstances under which the child was removed from the apartment (whether dead or alive, whether killed in a neglectful homicide or an intended homicide, whether the victim of a targeted abduction or an opportunistic abduction), nor even to produce a consistent prognosis about her destiny and inclusively - the most dramatic - to establish whether she is still alive or if she is dead, as seems more likely. (…) Therefore, after everything seen, analysed and duly pondered, facing all that is left exposed, we settle (…) the archiving of the process concerning the arguidos Gerald Patrick McCann and Kate Marie Healy, because there are no indications of their practise of any crime" (n° 15).
Always listen to both sides of the story before you judge.

The first storyteller you will always find has modified the story, for there benefit BE WISE.

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Portugal Supreme Court: The McCanns are not cleared in Maddie Case
« Reply #68 on: February 09, 2017, 12:26:01 PM »
sils quote
Unless the full judgement states or implies that Madeleine is dead, or presumed dead,




page 11

..."the law protects, however, not only that personal feeling of own worth, which can call up the internal honour, but above the projection in the social consciousness of all the personal values of each individual, which can be called external honour : the qualities a person needs to be respected in a social environment, including the good name and the reputation, the social consideration" [ op. cit. p. 587] .

The protection of the rights of the claimants to their good name and reputation is, in this case, closely related to the presumption of innocence.

The claimants Gerald and Kate McCann were made arguidos (formal suspects) in the criminal investigation, a status that had the function to guarantee their rights (though not being interpreted this way by the general public) and ceased with the closure of the investigation having the dispatch (AG) report concluded :"It has not been possible to obtain any piece of evidence that would allow for a average man, under the light of the criteria of logics, of normality and of the general rules of experience, to formulate any lucid, sensate, serious and honest conclusion about the circumstances under which the child was removed from the apartment (whether dead or alive, whether killed in a neglectful homicide or an intended homicide, whether the victim of a targeted abduction or an opportunistic abduction), nor even to produce a consistent prognosis about her destiny and inclusively - the most dramatic - to establish whether she is still alive or if she is dead, as seems more likely. (…) Therefore, after everything seen, analysed and duly pondered, facing all that is left exposed, we settle (…) the archiving of the process concerning the arguidos Gerald Patrick McCann and Kate Marie Healy, because there are no indications of their practise of any crime" (n° 15).
That certainly does NOT state or imply that the SC thinks or has stated that Madeleine is dead.  It CLEARLY retains the possibility that Madeleine is alive.  '... seems more likely' without supporting evidence is pure speculation on the part of whoever wrote the archiving report.
What's up, old man?

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Portugal Supreme Court: The McCanns are not cleared in Maddie Case
« Reply #69 on: February 09, 2017, 12:31:28 PM »
That certainly does NOT state or imply that the SC thinks or has stated that Madeleine is dead.  It CLEARLY retains the possibility that Madeleine is alive.  '... seems more likely' without supporting evidence is pure speculation on the part of whoever wrote the archiving report.

As they are the judiciary and investigating authority I would place more credence on their "as seems more likely" than an opposite "Seems more likely" from a gash hand.
I appreciate that is not the way it will work on this forum.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 05:08:22 PM by Alice Purjorick »
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Portugal Supreme Court: The McCanns are not cleared in Maddie Case
« Reply #70 on: February 09, 2017, 12:42:17 PM »
I guess Metro has translated at least some of it:

http://metro.co.uk/2017/02/09/kate-and-gerry-mccann-havent-been-proved-innocent-over-maddies-disappearance-6436728/

"The couple were left facing a huge legal bill and the nightmare prospect of being sued by Amaral, who led the initial hunt for Madeleine when she vanished, after being told last Tuesday the Supreme Court had gone against them in a ruling which was not made fully public until yesterday.

Judges made it clear in their decision their job was not to decide whether the McCanns bore any criminal responsibility over their daughter’s disappearance and it would be wrong for anyone to draw any inferences about the couple’s guilt or innocence from their ruling.

But they added: ‘It should not be said that the appellants were cleared via the ruling announcing the archiving of the criminal case.

‘In truth, that ruling was not made in virtue of Portugal’s Public Prosecution Service having acquired the conviction that the appellants hadn’t committed a crime.

‘The archiving of the case was determined by the fact that public prosecutors hadn’t managed to obtain sufficient evidence of the practice of crimes by the appellants.

‘There is therefore a significant, and not merely a semantic difference, between the legally admissible foundations of the archive ruling.
‘It doesn’t therefore seem acceptable that the ruling, based on the insufficiency of evidence, should be equated to proof of innocence.’

They added, highlighting the McCanns’ Tapas Nine friend Jane Tanner’s much-questioned sighting of the suspected ‘abductor’: ‘It’s true that the aforementioned criminal inquiry ended up being archived, namely because none of the apparent evidence that led to the appellants being made ‘arguidos’ was subsequently confirmed or consolidated.

‘However even the archive ruling raises serious concerns relating to the truth of the allegation that Madeleine was kidnapped.’ "


But they stated: ‘We consider the invocation of the violation of the principle of innocence should not be taken into account here, since this issue is not relevant to the resolution of the question that needs to be decided here.’

They said the ‘crucial question’ for them was how to resolve the rights of Kate and Gerry McCann to their ‘good name and reputation’ and the rights of Goncalo Amaral and the other respondents including the book editors to the constitutionally-inshrined right of ‘freedom of expression.’

Concluding Amaral had not acted ‘illicitly,’ they ruled his book was not a personal and unjustified attack on the McCanns with a ‘defamatory intention’ behind it which would not be protected by freedom of speech rights.

Describing the book and the TV documentary based on it as an ‘opinion’ based on the logic of facts and evidence contained in the criminal case files, they added: ‘Our opinion is that rather than an injurious animus, the intention was informative and defensive.’
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline xtina

Re: Portugal Supreme Court: The McCanns are not cleared in Maddie Case
« Reply #71 on: February 09, 2017, 12:42:33 PM »
That certainly does NOT state or imply that the SC thinks or has stated that Madeleine is dead.  It CLEARLY retains the possibility that Madeleine is alive.  '... seems more likely' without supporting evidence is pure speculation on the part of whoever wrote the archiving report.

my point was .....the UK press are not libeling themselves ...when quoting ...from the ruling it is mentioned ........

and after all ....it is what G A wrote his book about ..

that is now back on the shelves...

.the cover up of maddies death .although by accident ....

suppose we will have to wait and see.......sil
Always listen to both sides of the story before you judge.

The first storyteller you will always find has modified the story, for there benefit BE WISE.

Offline slartibartfast

Re: Portugal Supreme Court: The McCanns are not cleared in Maddie Case
« Reply #72 on: February 09, 2017, 12:48:00 PM »
That could have been a misunderstanding.  I never thought they were cleared, so I was surprised that was part of the Supreme Court case.  Everyone still has the right to be presumed innocent till proven guilty but you seem to advocate presumed guilty till proven innocent.

I think the "clearing" was part of the McCann's argument in the case hence it came into the decision.
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Portugal Supreme Court: The McCanns are not cleared in Maddie Case
« Reply #73 on: February 09, 2017, 01:27:38 PM »
I guess Metro has translated at least some of it:

http://metro.co.uk/2017/02/09/kate-and-gerry-mccann-havent-been-proved-innocent-over-maddies-disappearance-6436728/

"The couple were left facing a huge legal bill and the nightmare prospect of being sued by Amaral, who led the initial hunt for Madeleine when she vanished, after being told last Tuesday the Supreme Court had gone against them in a ruling which was not made fully public until yesterday.

Judges made it clear in their decision their job was not to decide whether the McCanns bore any criminal responsibility over their daughter’s disappearance and it would be wrong for anyone to draw any inferences about the couple’s guilt or innocence from their ruling.

But they added: ‘It should not be said that the appellants were cleared via the ruling announcing the archiving of the criminal case.

‘In truth, that ruling was not made in virtue of Portugal’s Public Prosecution Service having acquired the conviction that the appellants hadn’t committed a crime.

‘The archiving of the case was determined by the fact that public prosecutors hadn’t managed to obtain sufficient evidence of the practice of crimes by the appellants.

‘There is therefore a significant, and not merely a semantic difference, between the legally admissible foundations of the archive ruling.
‘It doesn’t therefore seem acceptable that the ruling, based on the insufficiency of evidence, should be equated to proof of innocence.’

They added, highlighting the McCanns’ Tapas Nine friend Jane Tanner’s much-questioned sighting of the suspected ‘abductor’: ‘It’s true that the aforementioned criminal inquiry ended up being archived, namely because none of the apparent evidence that led to the appellants being made ‘arguidos’ was subsequently confirmed or consolidated.

‘However even the archive ruling raises serious concerns relating to the truth of the allegation that Madeleine was kidnapped.’ "


But they stated: ‘We consider the invocation of the violation of the principle of innocence should not be taken into account here, since this issue is not relevant to the resolution of the question that needs to be decided here.’

They said the ‘crucial question’ for them was how to resolve the rights of Kate and Gerry McCann to their ‘good name and reputation’ and the rights of Goncalo Amaral and the other respondents including the book editors to the constitutionally-inshrined right of ‘freedom of expression.’

Concluding Amaral had not acted ‘illicitly,’ they ruled his book was not a personal and unjustified attack on the McCanns with a ‘defamatory intention’ behind it which would not be protected by freedom of speech rights.

Describing the book and the TV documentary based on it as an ‘opinion’ based on the logic of facts and evidence contained in the criminal case files, they added: ‘Our opinion is that rather than an injurious animus, the intention was informative and defensive.’

It's actually a fairly decent article, having read the lot.  Even The Sun has come up with a fairly accurate article.

The Daily Mail headline is anything but accurate.
What's up, old man?

Offline xtina

Re: Portugal Supreme Court: The McCanns are not cleared in Maddie Case
« Reply #74 on: February 09, 2017, 01:52:02 PM »
It's actually a fairly decent article, having read the lot.  Even The Sun has come up with a fairly accurate article.

The Daily Mail headline is anything but accurate.


seems panorama was there last week ......

http://portugalresident.com/uk-media-rounds-on-supreme-court-%E2%80%98shock%E2%80%99-that-mccanns-%E2%80%9Chave-not-been-proved-innocent%E2%80%9D



Posted by PORTUGALPRESS on February 09, 2017
UK media rounds on Supreme Court ‘shock’ that McCanns “have not been proved innocent”

UK tabloids - which for so long have been so ‘anti-Portuguese’ in their reporting of the Madeleine McCann mystery - are changing their tune following publication of the Supreme Court judgement which stressed that parents Kate and Gerry McCann have not been proved innocent in the context of their daughter’s disappearance (click here).

Media sources in touch with the Resident warn: “The tide is turning in UK. Did you know that Panorama was in Luz last week? Tell your readers to batten down, they’re all coming”.

The Sun, the Mirror, the Daily Mail began the day leading with hurtful headlines.

Curiously, the Daily Mail’s “Portuguese court says Madeleine McCann’s parents HAVEN’T been cleared” (with large capital letters for the word haven’t) was later changed to: “Fresh anguish for Madeleine McCann's parents as Portugal's supreme court insists they haven't been proved innocent over their daughter's death”.

But the thrust of the story is busily steaming its way through the English-speaking mainstream while the McCann couple themselves, and their representatives, must be considering a response with care.

Says the Mail: “A spokesperson for the McCann’s did not want to respond to request for comment last night”, while the Mirror - running with the story under “Kate and Gerry McCann ‘not formally in the clear’ over daughter Madeleine’s disappearance” says the Supreme Court ruling “means suspicion still hangs over the heads of the McCanns, who have always claimed their innocence”.

Another cloud highlighted by the ruling is the fact that there remain “serious concerns relating to the truth that Madeleine was kidnapped” (Daily Mail today, as well as Portuguese papers, quoting directly from the 76-page text).

For Praia da Luz - the holiday village perennially dragged into the spotlight over this almost decade-long mystery - the question on everyone’s minds is “if there is a media stampede back” could it spell a rush of welcome pre-season business, and would it disappear in time to let the popular sun-blessed village enjoy a trouble-free summer?

natasha.donn@algarveresident.com


Always listen to both sides of the story before you judge.

The first storyteller you will always find has modified the story, for there benefit BE WISE.