SC's Palms and Fingers

[Caroline]

David can I ask what your views are on these marks on SC's hands?  From your posts you seem to be saying they're blood stains? As an aside I recall from IA you were arguing NB sustained fingernail gouges to his arm, again not noted by Dr Vanezis or Prof Knight, are you still holding out on this?

Venezis went further than that, he said they were NOT gouges and more in line with being pistol whipped.

[Holly Goodhead]

Venezis went further than that, he said they were NOT gouges and more in line with being pistol whipped.

Did he use the term "pistol whipped"?  Thought he referred to non-gunshot injuries as "blows" from a "blunt instrument"?

[Holly Goodhead]

David you have recently exchanged posts with Mat on Blue:

The rifle is not covered in lead based lubricant the brass shell casings are. Furthermore you have copper and zinc traces on her hands that are both alloy components of what would make up the brass shell casings.

What would Sheila be doing that night in order to get those on her hands?

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,9173.msg431262/topicseen.html#msg431262

If you Google Copper and Zinc you will find they are found in many food stuffs and everday items:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc

SC may have eaten a bar of chocolate before bed which contains copper and zinc.  The body requires these minerals to function!

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vitamins-and-minerals/

You're not helping JB with your poorly researched arguments.

The test presented at trial is invalid as it's impossible to conclude scientifically he/she did/didn't handle x when he/she may well have handled y containing the same materials.

[david1819]

SC may have eaten a bar of chocolate before bed which contains copper and zinc.  The body requires these minerals to function!

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vitamins-and-minerals/

You're not helping JB with your poorly researched arguments.

Milk Chocolate is roughly 0.002% copper. Dark Chocolate is roughly 0.006% copper. Brass is 65% copper

Considering the copper levels on her hands are similar to the testees who with absolute certainty handled 18 brass casings. Loaded them into the magazine that causes brass particles to be scratched off onto the loaders hands.



So.

How much chocolate would have to be smeared onto Sheila hands to get the same level of reading?

Did Vanezis report any chocolate stains on her hands? No. 

Did the lab staff notice chocolate on the swabs? No.

Have you ever heard of a defence lawyer arguing their client ate chocolate instead of loading a gun? No

Am I the one here with poorly researched arguments? No.

I dont even know why I bother.

[Holly Goodhead]

Milk Chocolate is roughly 0.002% copper. Dark Chocolate is roughly 0.006% copper. Brass is 65% copper

Considering the copper levels on her hands are similar to the testees who with absolute certainty handled 18 brass casings. Loaded them into the magazine that causes brass particles to be scratched off onto the loaders hands.



So.

How much chocolate would have to be smeared onto Sheila hands to get the same level of reading?

Did Vanezis report any chocolate stains on her hands? No. 

Did the lab staff notice chocolate on the swabs? No.

Have you ever heard of a defence lawyer arguing their client ate chocolate instead of loading a gun? No

Am I the one here with poorly researched arguments? No.

I dont even know why I bother.

The test carried out by Brian Elliot and the results presented at trial were based on lead not brass, copper or zinc.

I've already explained to you in 1985 lead was still present in everyday items eg petrol and items still in use from a bygone era eg paintwork, childrens toys. 

The test results presented at trial were meaningless as firstly the testees hands were not swabbed beforehand to ascertain lead levels, secondly the results between SC and testees were not quantitatively different, thirdly given everyday items contained lead in 1985 the test results are meaningless as there's no way of knowing whether the low levels of lead found on swabs from testees and SC orginated from handling cartridges and/or some other item(s).

I was being somewhat facetious about the chocolate although it does contain copper and zinc.  David it seems everyone other than yourself understands brass, copper and zinc can be found in everyday items with copper and zinc present in a wide variety of foods:

- Batteries
- Childrens toys
- Cutlery
- Coins
- Jewellery
- Make-up
- Pipe Fittings including taps
- Prescription drugs
- White goods

It would be a miracle if the hands of testees and SC didn't contain traces of copper, lead and zinc (and brass).

You say Dr Vanezis didn't identify any chocolate stains on SC's hands which is correct.  According to Dr Vanezis and DC Hammersley SC's hands, palms and fingers, were clean to the naked eye so how did lead, copper and zinc present on the hand swabs?  This is how poor your arguments and reasonsing are.  These substances present on the skin (swabs) under certain conditions (gamma rays with lead) but are not visible to the naked eye.   

There's a simple answer to all this:

Testees hands are swabbed for lead levels.  If lead presents it is removed.

Testees load cartridges into mag

Testees hands are swabbed and tested for lead. 

I don't believe the swabs will detect lead as the bullet is coated in parrafin wax and it is only possible to load the cartridges into the mag by pressing down on the brass end not the bullet (lead).

Take another peep at Farm Girl and note how she loads the ammo pressing down on the brass end not the bullet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdAI9j_lDbc

Anyway it doesn't matter the bottom line is the test results presented at trial are meaningless and do not mean that had SC handled the cartridges higher levels of lead would present on the swabs taken from her hands.

[Caroline]

Quite interesting

2. Gunpowder residue leaves expected patterns
When a gun is fired, the bullet is not the only thing that comes out of the barrel. Burning powder particles also expectorate and will create a pattern on the object closest to the barrel. This pattern varies by how far the weapon is from the target. By knowing the patterns of a particular firearm, a consensus can be reached about how close or how far away the gun was. If there are no powder marks on the hand holding the gun or the forehead around the bullet hole, it is unlikely that the victim shot himself, so suicide can be ruled out no matter how convincing the pose looks to the untrained eye.

http://forensicoutreach.com/library/6-remarkable-ways-guns-can-be-linked-to-a-crime-scene/

[Holly Goodhead]

Quite interesting

2. Gunpowder residue leaves expected patterns
When a gun is fired, the bullet is not the only thing that comes out of the barrel. Burning powder particles also expectorate and will create a pattern on the object closest to the barrel. This pattern varies by how far the weapon is from the target. By knowing the patterns of a particular firearm, a consensus can be reached about how close or how far away the gun was. If there are no powder marks on the hand holding the gun or the forehead around the bullet hole, it is unlikely that the victim shot himself, so suicide can be ruled out no matter how convincing the pose looks to the untrained eye.

http://forensicoutreach.com/library/6-remarkable-ways-guns-can-be-linked-to-a-crime-scene/

Yes gunpowder residue (usually referred to as gunshot residue (GSR)) is an established forensic test but that's not what we're talking about here.  The test carried out by Brian Elliot was for lead from handling cartridges not GSR from firearm discharge.  GSR contains a unique combination of particles linked soley to firearm discharge. 

Fletcher claims he sustained black discolouration to his hands from simply loading the cartridges not discharging the firearm.

[Caroline]

Yes gunpowder residue (usually referred to as gunshot residue (GSR)) is an established forensic test but that's not what we're talking about here.  The test carried out by Brian Elliot was for lead from handling cartridges not GSR from firearm discharge.  GSR contains a unique combination of particles linked soley to firearm discharge. 

Fletcher claims he sustained black discolouration to his hands from simply loading the cartridges not discharging the firearm.

If she discharged the firearm, she should have had GSR on at least the trigger hand. She didn't.

[Holly Goodhead]

If she discharged the firearm, she should have had GSR on at least the trigger hand. She didn't.

SC's hands were not tested in accordance with GSR test procedures:

- GSR only last a few hours until it dissipates
- Any movement will accelerate the above
- SC's trigger hand was moved at soc to take soc images
- Both hands were moved to place in bags
- SC was placed in a bag and transported to path lab
- At path lab DC Hammersley swabbed her hands and forehead by which time any GSR would potentially be lost
- Swabs were sent to FSS with an unrelated firearm
- Lab rejected swabs as potential for contamination
- DCI Ainsley took over and insisted the swabs were examined
- Brian Elliot conjured up the lead test instead in an attempt to demonstrate SC didn't handle the cartridges

The lead test isn't a valid forensic scientific test. 

No GSR testing was ever carried out.

[david1819]

Here is an extract from an American COA document

"One of the particles found on appellant's right hand showed the presence of lead, copper, zinc, barium, calcium, and silica. These same elements were present in the ammunition found in the weapon at the scene. Hence, the elemental composition of this particle was entirely consistent with the ammunition used to fire the fatal shot. Mr. Fong could not think of anything other than a gunshot which would account for such a particle."

No counter argument by the defence of eating Chocolate 

Can you find any case where chocolate has been misinterepreted to the extent that it appears like someone could have used a gun?

[Holly Goodhead]

Here is an extract from an American COA document

"One of the particles found on appellant's right hand showed the presence of lead, copper, zinc, barium, calcium, and silica. These same elements were present in the ammunition found in the weapon at the scene. Hence, the elemental composition of this particle was entirely consistent with the ammunition used to fire the fatal shot. Mr. Fong could not think of anything other than a gunshot which would account for such a particle."

No counter argument by the defence of eating Chocolate 

Can you find any case where chocolate has been misinterepreted to the extent that it appears like someone could have used a gun?

Please refrain from using emoticons, gifs and any other images which have the potential to sow discord on the forum. 

The operative word above is particle David.  It appears the particle contained enough elements to link it to the soc.  Are you able to find me any JB/SC case related docs referring to particles?  I certainly haven't seen any.  SC's hands were found to contain traces of lead, copper, Zinc (and calcium if my memory serves me correctly).  These chemicals were found and identified independently of one another suggesting they were present from handling everyday items and ingesting foods containing copper and zinc which present on the skin from the biological system. 

[david1819]

The test carried out by Brian Elliot and the results presented at trial were based on lead not brass, copper or zinc.

I've already explained to you in 1985 lead was still present in everyday items eg petrol and items still in use from a bygone era eg paintwork, childrens toys. 

The test results presented at trial were meaningless as firstly the testees hands were not swabbed beforehand to ascertain lead levels, secondly the results between SC and testees were not quantitatively different, thirdly given everyday items contained lead in 1985 the test results are meaningless as there's no way of knowing whether the low levels of lead found on swabs from testees and SC orginated from handling cartridges and/or some other item(s).

I was being somewhat facetious about the chocolate although it does contain copper and zinc.  David it seems everyone other than yourself understands brass, copper and zinc can be found in everyday items with copper and zinc present in a wide variety of foods:

- Batteries
- Childrens toys
- Cutlery
- Coins
- Jewellery
- Make-up
- Pipe Fittings including taps
- Prescription drugs
- White goods

It would be a miracle if the hands of testees and SC didn't contain traces of copper, lead and zinc (and brass).

You say Dr Vanezis didn't identify any chocolate stains on SC's hands which is correct.  According to Dr Vanezis and DC Hammersley SC's hands, palms and fingers, were clean to the naked eye so how did lead, copper and zinc present on the hand swabs?  This is how poor your arguments and reasonsing are.  These substances present on the skin (swabs) under certain conditions (gamma rays with lead) but are not visible to the naked eye.   

There's a simple answer to all this:

Testees hands are swabbed for lead levels.  If lead presents it is removed.

Testees load cartridges into mag

Testees hands are swabbed and tested for lead. 

I don't believe the swabs will detect lead as the bullet is coated in parrafin wax and it is only possible to load the cartridges into the mag by pressing down on the brass end not the bullet (lead).

Take another peep at Farm Girl and note how she loads the ammo pressing down on the brass end not the bullet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdAI9j_lDbc

Anyway it doesn't matter the bottom line is the test results presented at trial are meaningless and do not mean that had SC handled the cartridges higher levels of lead would present on the swabs taken from her hands.

Just to clear things up.

Fact-  Brian Elliot said at trial the testees washed their hands prior to doing the experiment.

Fact-  Rivlin and Munday brought up the similar levels of copper and iron between SC and the testees. Along with the different levels of copper between the SC control swab and the hand swabs.

I believe Rivlin and Munday were onto something too little too late because its not going to fit in with their ritualistic cleansing argument. Make sense?

My explanation for the graphs is that SC loaded the lead coated bullets into the magazine. This also resulted in brass scrapings going onto her left hand that was holding the magazine. Hence higher levels of lead on her right hand and higher levels of copper on her left hand. and the similar copper levels on the testees.

Of course I am not arguing this in isolation proves that happened. But it fits into the bigger picture of things.

I have overlapped some of the XRF charts. The first one shows SC control swab in green, left hand in pink and right and in red.

The second chart shows SC left hand in pink and testee SW left hand in blue.

I plan to make more when I get more time 

 

[Holly Goodhead]

Just to clear things up.

Fact-  Brian Elliot said at trial the testees washed their hands prior to doing the experiment.

It is generally known washing alone will not remove lead.  A lead removal product is required. 

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/lead/safe.html

Dr Lloyd criticised the fact swabs were not taken from the testees prior to handling the cartridges and he's right imo.  Surely this alone tells you all you need to know about the numpty so-called scientists at FSS?  Without knowing whether or not lead was present on their hands prior to handling the cartridges how can you attribute anything to the cartridges when the low levels found on their hands could just as easily be attributed to filling up a car with leaded petrol or numerous other explanations. 

Fact-  Rivlin and Munday brought up the similar levels of copper and iron between SC and the testees. Along with the different levels of copper between the SC control swab and the hand swabs.

I believe Rivlin and Munday were onto something too little too late because its not going to fit in with their ritualistic cleansing argument. Make sense?

Munday?  You mean Lawson?  Munday was junior for the prosecution with Lawson for the defence?

David the levels of these chemicals presenting are incredibly small and can easily be accounted for by everyday items, the atmosphere and biological system eg sweat. 

My explanation for the graphs is that SC loaded the lead coated bullets into the magazine. This also resulted in brass scrapings going onto her left hand that was holding the magazine. Hence higher levels of lead on her right hand and higher levels of copper on her left hand. and the similar copper levels on the testees.

Of course I am not arguing this in isolation proves that happened. But it fits into the bigger picture of things.

I have overlapped some of the XRF charts. The first one shows SC control swab in green, left hand in pink and right and in red.

The second chart shows SC left hand in pink and testee SW left hand in blue.

I plan to make more when I get more time 

I think you over complicate things.  As I said these low levels of chemicals including lead can be accounted for by the atmosphere, biological system and everyday items. 

The bullet (lead) is about 0.5cm long and 0.5cm at its widest point and coated with parrafin wax.  It hasn't even been proven whether or not the lead can penetrate the parrafin wax when handled through the course of loading the mag. 

http://www.eley.co.uk/eley-subsonic-hollow

There are a million and one things at play here eg SC's hands were placed in plastic bags what effect, if any, did this have on chemicals on her hands?

I've no idea what you hope to achieve by poring over this?  As far as I can see the only way to advance it is by carrying out new tests:

-Swab hands
-If lead present remove with lead removal product
-Swab again to check all lead removed and keep repeating until all lead removed ie clear lead free swab
-Load cartridges into mag 26 times
-Swab hands and check for lead levels
-If no lead present or same levels of lead as SC's swabs = probably indicative of her loading cartridges
-If more lead then we're back to ritual washing or considering JB might be guilty!   

[Holly Goodhead]

Another point to consider is which part of the hand was swabbed.

DC Hammersley swabbed SC's hands for GSR and may have swabbed her palms or the back of the hands. 

Swabs taken from the testees may have been taken from the fingers which is the area most likely to come into contact with the lead bullet. 

Pointless poring over what's gone as there are too many unknowns. 

[Holly Goodhead]

David why not just take part in the experiment?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?PHPSESSID=8rdbfh3fldcp4shui0p9a00dm7&topic=7970.msg422228#msg422228