Author Topic: SC's Palms and Fingers  (Read 39069 times)

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david1819

  • Guest
Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #60 on: September 02, 2017, 05:51:23 AM »
Ok I've got it now and think this will make yet another nice little add on to a third and final appeal resulting in an acquittal.  It's necessary to refer back to the CoA doc:

http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html

176. It is necessary to start by examining those parts of the evidence which are not in issue. It is clear that the police from an early stage appreciated the possible significance of the state of Sheila Caffell's hands and of anything that might connect them with the use of the gun. To preserve any available evidence, the hands were covered with plastic bags before the body was removed. When the post-mortem examination of the bodies of Nevill Bamber & Sheila Caffell took place later that day an officer, DC Hammersley, took swabs from the hands of Sheila Caffell using a special kit made for taking samples for testing for firearm residues. He labelled the swabs with the reference DRH/33. There is evidence from which it can be established that these samples were taken at 3.15 p.m. on 7 August.

So the kit used to swab SC's hands was designed for testing firearm residues as in gunshot residue.  When a firearm is discharged ie particles made up of various matter which are dispelled from the muzzle when the bullet exits and/or possibly the casing from the ejection port.  The kit was not designed to test for lead but this is what ended up happening:

197. Mr Wingard was asked whether in any event he would expect to see a record of the rejection in the statements provided by the scientists. He said that it would very much depend on the reason for the rejection and its possible effect on the outcome of the tests. It was not normal to recount the history unless it had a bearing on the evidential value of the conclusions. If rejection might in any way invalidate conclusions that might be drawn from the evidence of the tests, then he would expect that it would be recorded. However, that was not the situation here since there was no way in which contamination by proximity to firearms could have decreased the quantity of lead found on the swabs from Sheila Caffell's hands. The rejection, and the reasons for it were, therefore, not relevant to the inference suggested from the testing that Sheila Caffell had not been responsible for the repeated handling of the bullets. He made clear that the testing was for the presence of lead, and was not testing for firearms residue as such.

It's difficult to know whether those involved at FSS were complicit with EP in fabricating evidence or grossly incompetent.  Michael Turner QC and the judges obviously fall into the latter category.

The test was completely invalid.

Michael Turner QC had hired Dr John Lloyd to give evidence at the appeal in regards to the hand swaps.

The Judges didn't allow him to give evidence. He just sat in the waiting room all day then told him to go home.

See attachment below.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #61 on: September 02, 2017, 12:34:55 PM »
Michael Turner QC had hired Dr John Lloyd to give evidence at the appeal in regards to the hand swaps.

The Judges didn't allow him to give evidence. He just sat in the waiting room all day then told him to go home.

See attachment below.

Freudian slip, maybe

Dr Lloyd's input is included in the 2002 appeal:

217. The evidence which Mr Turner sought to call was that of Dr Lloyd, a chemist. He contended that Dr Lloyd's evidence would cast doubt upon the test findings and that if it had been available at trial, it might very well have obviated the need to advance the ritualistic washing theory that the jury may well have found unsatisfactory.

218. Dr Lloyd's conclusions, as apparent from a report with which we were supplied, were principally that the lead found on the handswabs from Sheila Caffell and from those tested in the laboratory came from petrol combustion residues and was not connected with the handling of bullets. Secondly that the handswabs from Sheila Caffell were not qualitatively different from those from the testees. He was critical of the laboratory test saying that swabs should have been taken both before the handling of the bullets so that a comparison could have been made between the two. Accordingly in his opinion the test results were of no assistance to the determination of whether or not Sheila Caffell had handled the cartridges in the same manner as the testees.


The bottom line is that the swabbing kit was designed to capture the fallout from firearm discharge residue (GSR) not lead as a stand alone chemical.  The test/results used by the prosecution were/are invalid.  There's no scientific basis to assert the theory that had SC handled the bullets the swabs taken from her hands at PM on at 3.15pm on 7th Aug and tested on 13th Sept would show "significantly higher levels of lead" comparable with live testees. 
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 03:58:13 PM by Holly Goodhead »
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

david1819

  • Guest
Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #62 on: September 02, 2017, 03:13:14 PM »
Freudian slip, maybe

Dr Lloyd's input is included in the 2002 appeal:

217. The evidence which Mr Turner sought to call was that of Dr Lloyd, a chemist. He contended that Dr Lloyd's evidence would cast doubt upon the test findings and that if it had been available at trial, it might very well have obviated the need to advance the ritualistic washing theory that the jury may well have found unsatisfactory.

218. Dr Lloyd's conclusions, as apparent from a report with which we were supplied, were principally that the lead found on the handswabs from Sheila Caffell and from those tested in the laboratory came from petrol combustion residues and was not connected with the handling of bullets. Secondly that the handswabs from Sheila Caffell were not qualitatively different from those from the testees. He was critical of the laboratory test saying that swabs should have been taken both before the handling of the bullets so that a comparison could have been made between the two. Accordingly in his opinion the test results were of no assistance to the determination of whether or not Sheila Caffell had handled the cartridges in the same manner as the testees.


The bottom line is that the swabbing kit was designed to capture the fallout from firearm discharge residue (GSR) not lead as a stand alone chemical.  The test/results used by the prosecution were/are invalid.  There's no scientific basis to assert the theory that had SC handled the bullets the swabs taken from her hands at PM on at 3.15pm on 7th Aug and tested on 13th Sept would show "significantly higher levels of lead" comparable with live testees.

Nah I often get mixed up with swab swap.. XD

Lead is one of the elements a GSR kit is designed to pick up on. I don't believe the tests are invalid or anything was swapped around.

Read the lab documents below. "These findings indicate that Sheila Caffell is unlikely to have loaded cartridges into the magazine shortly before her death" Its a well known fact that trace elements do not stay on living subjects for that long. The magazine could have last been loaded several hours before her death.

Furthermore the XRF results show that Sheila had four times as much lead on her right hand than her left hand. As it goes the same ratio as one of the lab testees. It is no coincidence IMO that Sheila being right handed had four times as much lead on her right hand than her left hand.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 03:58:33 PM by Holly Goodhead »

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #63 on: September 02, 2017, 04:35:43 PM »
Nah I often get mixed up with swab swap.. XD

Lead is one of the elements a GSR kit is designed to pick up on. I don't believe the tests are invalid or anything was swapped around.

Read the lab documents below. "These findings indicate that Sheila Caffell is unlikely to have loaded cartridges into the magazine shortly before her death" Its a well known fact that trace elements do not stay on living subjects for that long. The magazine could have last been loaded several hours before her death.

Furthermore the XRF results show that Sheila had four times as much lead on her right hand than her left hand. As it goes the same ratio as one of the lab testees. It is no coincidence IMO that Sheila being right handed had four times as much lead on her right hand than her left hand.

I don't have Roger Wilkes book to hand at the moment but I recall reading and posting up about the Gov of the day sending a team in to FSS, Hunts post JB's trial to address failings.  I don't believe this had anything to do with JB's case per se and I have no idea exactly what it was all about but the place certainly doesn't fill me with confidence.

Please find me details about forensic tests to assess lead levels on hands in connection with handling bullets.  Check out forensic service websites, FBI list of tests etc.

Have you actually handled the bullets and loaded them into the mag?  I have and instinctively handled them by the brass end and loaded them into the mag nose in (lead bullet end) ie no need for hand/fingers to come into contact with lead. 

The swabbing kit was designed to test GSR.  The shooter would have no control over this.  Upon discharge GSR emits from muzzle, vents and port.  This will deposit on shooters person, clothes.  Handling the bullets and testing for lead as a stand alone chemical is completely different.

https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=moz35&p=youtube+testing+hands+for+lead#id=1&vid=feeccc9564ac8d525c67dc7edbd763d7&action=click

GSR is widely used forensic test and this is what DC Hammersley tested for at PM using a kit specifically designed for this purpose.  For various reasons this test would not withstand scrutiny and therefore the lab went down the road of testing for lead from handling bullets which in this case is not a valid scientific experiment and the test results are meaningless.

http://www.horiba.com/fileadmin/uploads/Scientific/Documents/XRay/xgtfor03.pdf

https://leb.fbi.gov/2011/may/the-current-status-of-gsr-examinations

A particle must meet certain criteria to become characterized as GSR. Three specifications, in particular, determine if a particle originates from the primer of a discharged firearm.17 The elemental composition of the particle is the most diagnostic criterion. Most primers used in North America consist of lead styphnate (Pb) as an initiating explosive, barium nitrate (Ba) as an oxidizer, and antimony sulfide (Sb) as a fuel; therefore, a combination of these elements in a single particle proves very significant. ASTM 1588 Standard Guide for Gunshot Residue Analysis by Scanning Electron Microscopy/Energy Dispersive X-ray Spectrometry (SEM/ EDS) contains a complete list of elemental compositions allowed in primer GSR determinations. Second, the morphology of the tiny condensed primer residue particles typically is spheroid or shows shape characteristics of having been molten.18
 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #64 on: September 03, 2017, 01:11:45 PM »
Nah I often get mixed up with swab swap.. XD

Lead is one of the elements a GSR kit is designed to pick up on. I don't believe the tests are invalid or anything was swapped around.

Read the lab documents below. "These findings indicate that Sheila Caffell is unlikely to have loaded cartridges into the magazine shortly before her death" Its a well known fact that trace elements do not stay on living subjects for that long. The magazine could have last been loaded several hours before her death.

Furthermore the XRF results show that Sheila had four times as much lead on her right hand than her left hand. As it goes the same ratio as one of the lab testees. It is no coincidence IMO that Sheila being right handed had four times as much lead on her right hand than her left hand.

David I assume you realise that some lead on hands would be expected from handling everyday items containing lead?

The bullets use paraffin wax as a lubricant which I guess will act as somewhat of a barrier.

Why was the evidence at trial and appeal presented as lead and not GSR? 

The docs you posted above are extremely poor quality in terms of content.  These tests produce independent readings where are they?  (Same goes for the blood serology tests using gel electrophoresis which produce photographic evidence, where are they?) The test referred to in you post is XRF analysis.  You will hopefully identify the flaws of using such in this case:?

http://aboutforensics.co.uk/x-ray-fluorescence-spectroscopy/
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #65 on: September 04, 2017, 07:01:02 PM »
David are you hiding from Holly?

I've been unable to find my post quoting Roger Wilkes re failings at FSS but you can hear it here from Gov:

3.3.1 Following some high profile quality failures in the 1980s the FSS implemented accreditation to quality standards from 1993 onwards, a world first for forensic science.

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmselect/cmsctech/writev/forensic/m61.htm

John Hayward who carried out the XRF analysis told the court at trial he had a degree in general science with an emphasis on biology.  Today a degree in chemistry would probably be the minimum requirement to carry out the test and apply meaning to it.  Do you have Brian Elliot's testimony?   It seems he was the one who provided the trial testimony about the results?  I don't have any confidence in the set up:

- DC Hammersley swabbed for GSR using a kit for this specific purpose.  This then becomes a test for lead from handling bullets.
- John Hayward carries out XRF analysis and applies meaning re lead and handling bullets.
- Malcolm Fletcher's trial testimony covers discharge residues, oil and lubricants.  (This is Malcolm Fletcher who told the court his relevant experience included use of an air rifle as a boy).
- Brian Elliot's trial testimony covers the swabs although I've yet to read this.

The standard of documention is appalling.  These people come over to me as totally incompetent along with their processes and systems.  Was there anyone at the lab who was capable of standing up to the police or did they just engineer tests/results based on police requirements?

I've seen so many tests/results which just dont stack up:

- Above re GSR/lead from handling
- Blood in the rifle capable of being typed after multiple test fires
- MF's claims that the bullets emitted black specks/beeswax
 
What did the "high profile quality failures" involve?
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Myster

Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #66 on: September 04, 2017, 07:40:23 PM »
David are you hiding from Holly?

I've been unable to find my post quoting Roger Wilkes re failings at FSS but you can hear it here from Gov:

3.3.1 Following some high profile quality failures in the 1980s the FSS implemented accreditation to quality standards from 1993 onwards, a world first for forensic science.

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmselect/cmsctech/writev/forensic/m61.htm

John Hayward who carried out the XRF analysis told the court at trial he had a degree in general science with an emphasis on biology.  Today a degree in chemistry would probably be the minimum requirement to carry out the test and apply meaning to it.  Do you have Brian Elliot's testimony?   It seems he was the one who provided the trial testimony about the results?  I don't have any confidence in the set up:

- DC Hammersley swabbed for GSR using a kit for this specific purpose.  This then becomes a test for lead from handling bullets.
- John Hayward carries out XRF analysis and applies meaning re lead and handling bullets.
- Malcolm Fletcher's trial testimony covers discharge residues, oil and lubricants.  (This is Malcolm Fletcher who told the court his relevant experience included use of an air rifle as a boy).
- Brian Elliot's trial testimony covers the swabs although I've yet to read this.

The standard of documention is appalling.  These people come over to me as totally incompetent along with their processes and systems.  Was there anyone at the lab who was capable of standing up to the police or did they just engineer tests/results based on police requirements?

I've seen so many tests/results which just dont stack up:

- Above re GSR/lead from handling
- Blood in the rifle capable of being typed after multiple test fires
- MF's claims that the bullets emitted black specks/beeswax
 
What did the "high profile quality failures" involve?

We've all got to start somewhere!

Might have been a substitute batch of beeswax for paraffin wax which the recent Eley office staff you wrote to never knew about, if it wasn't accounted for and noted down in their 1980's records.
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #67 on: September 05, 2017, 10:25:06 AM »

We've all got to start somewhere!

Try telling that to anyone who may have suffered a moj as a result of any incompetence/wrongdoing at the lab.


Might have been a substitute batch of beeswax for paraffin wax which the recent Eley office staff you wrote to never knew about, if it wasn't accounted for and noted down in their 1980's records.

Maybe but the 2002 appeal notice doesn't fill me with confidence when FSS refer to carrying out tests using "similar" cartridges.

177. At trial Brian Elliott, a scientist from the Home Office Forensic Science Laboratory, gave evidence that the item DRH/33 described as "Swabbing Kit – hands of Sheila Caffell" had been received at the laboratory on 13 September 1985. He said that tests had been carried out for the presence of lead and that only "very low levels of lead have been detected on the two hand swabs". He further reported that tests had been carried out on two members of the laboratory staff who had loaded eighteen cartridges, similar to those used to shoot those who died at White House Farm, into the magazine of the rifle, and "significantly higher levels of lead" had been detected. Clearly if this evidence was right it cast doubt upon Sheila Caffell having loaded the cartridges into the gun and thus to her having killed the others and then herself.

If a scientist wants to carry out such a test surely it's obvious that the cartridges need to be the exact same cartridges used at WHF not similar ones.  How similar was similar? 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #68 on: September 05, 2017, 12:26:57 PM »
Nah I often get mixed up with swab swap.. XD

Lead is one of the elements a GSR kit is designed to pick up on. I don't believe the tests are invalid or anything was swapped around.

Read the lab documents below. "These findings indicate that Sheila Caffell is unlikely to have loaded cartridges into the magazine shortly before her death" Its a well known fact that trace elements do not stay on living subjects for that long. The magazine could have last been loaded several hours before her death.

Furthermore the XRF results show that Sheila had four times as much lead on her right hand than her left hand. As it goes the same ratio as one of the lab testees. It is no coincidence IMO that Sheila being right handed had four times as much lead on her right hand than her left hand.

David, Holly is waiting for you, again!

http://www.tapeast.co.uk/

I refer you to the 2002 appeal points 175 - 232.

http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html

Lets park claims of swapping swabs and just stick to the validity of the test(s).

Point 176.  DC Hammersley took swabs from the hands of SC using a special kit made for taking samples for testing firearms residue.  Documents show the swabs were taken at PM on 7th Aug at 3.15pm 

Point 177. Brian Elliot at trial told the court he received the swabs on 13th Sep 85.  Tests were carried out for the presence of lead and only very low levels were detected on the two hand swabs.  He further reported that tests were carried out on two members of the laboratory staff who loaded 18 cartridges, similar to those used at WHF, into the magazine and the results showed significantly higher levels of lead compared with the swabs.

As you know GSR is made up of various matter.  Singling out a stand alone chemical eg lead doesn't qualify as GSR.

Testing for GSR is a long established widely used test across the world.  Afaik using the kit described in point 176 above in an attempt to identify lead from handling bullets is not a valid test:

- The shooter wouldn't necessarily touch the bullet when loading into mag.  Even if they did the bullets are coated with lubricant which would act as a barrier?

- The test carried out at the lab used "similar" bullets.  How similar is similar?

- The expert evidence states SC died around the same time as the other victims.  Even if I go with some of the whacky theories that SC took her own life shortly before or after the police broke in this would put the time at approx 7.30am.  Swabs were taken some 8 hours later?  The swabs were then analysed some 5 weeks later.  Did the lab test mirror this? 

- The swabs were initially rejected by the lab but when DCI Ainsely took over he insisted they were examined:

The hands – were swabbed – swabs rejected by the laboratory. Later raised by D/Superintendent Ainsley in conference at the laboratory when the laboratory again stated that it was too costly to do and that it would be expected to show a positive result as the body of Sheila was in a room contaminated by gunfire. D/Superintendent Ainsley made issue that the swabs should be examined and if not done he wished a statement to explain why it had not been done. As a result they were examined and found to be virtually negative of residue, i.e. lead, oil and propellant."

There was an assumption that a positive result was expected as SC was found in a room contaminated by gunfire.  However test results were neagtive for GSR, lead, oil and propellant.

At point 197 Peter Wingard: "He made clear that the testing was for the presence of lead, and was not testing for firearms residue as such".

215. At trial Mr Elliott had given evidence of the results of testing the swabs for lead, which included information about other elements detectable on the swab. He had also given evidence of the comparative tests carried out on other scientists after they had handled ammunition from the same source as that used in the killings and loaded it into the magazine. The tests were said to demonstrate appreciably higher lead levels on the scientists' hands than were found on the swabs taken from the hands of Sheila Caffell.

Now there's talk of other elements.

216. At trial, Mr Rivlin QC, who appeared for the appellant at trial, sought to counteract this evidence in two ways. First in cross-examination of the scientist, he drew his attention to traces of other elements in the test results from the swabs, iron and copper, and queried whether these were significant. The scientist said that they were no more than might have been obtained from the atmosphere. He did not think the copper could have come from the bullets unless they had been scratched. The other defence approach to this evidence was the theory of ritualistic washing to which reference has earlier been made.

Then a kit designed for testing GSR takes another turn:

228. The reason why the judge approached the matter in this way becomes apparent when the evidence of Mr Fletcher, the prosecution's firearms expert is considered. Mr Fletcher gave the jury a demonstration of loading the magazine with the bullets. He commented that in his experience loading a full magazine would leave marks on the hands adding "in this case you get a black discolouration". (Transcript PMS/10 page 18B). When he was cross-examined by Mr Lawson, junior counsel for the appellant at trial, he was asked about this part of his evidence and said (Transcript PMS/10 page 47H):

"Well they are my own observations, and I think the observations of the court yesterday when the demonstration was made, that by loading cartridges into the magazine you get residues on your hands from the bullets and cartridges."


230. We should perhaps point out that quite apart from Mr Fletcher's evidence, the matters were also apparent in the notes that he made of the experimental loading of cartridges. He had noted after the first loading "some lead specks and frags and some discolouration"; after the second "Further specks and frags and darker discolouration"; and after the third "quite a few specks and fragments of lead and grey/black discolouration". (See memorandum of Dr Lloyd dated 14 October 2002). As Dr Lloyd points out it may have been an assumption that the particles were lead, but the fact that the hands became dirty was noted on that occasion as well.

231. Thus even if the scientific testing for lead could have been discredited, it would not have answered the essential point that if Sheila Caffell had loaded the magazine in the way that the killer did, she must have cleaned her hands afterwards. The ritualistic cleaning theory, with all its imperfections, was thus the essential matter upon which the jury had to concentrate.


When jurors were invited to handle the cartridges and load them into mag were they the exact same type used at WHF or "similar" as used in tests above?  Were the cartridges taken from a sealed box? 

I know from my own experience of loading the cartridges into the mag at the gun shop that my hands were spotlessly clean to the naked eye.

David do you still maintain the test was a valid one with reliable results?
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #69 on: September 05, 2017, 01:22:18 PM »
Nah I often get mixed up with swab swap.. XD

Lead is one of the elements a GSR kit is designed to pick up on. I don't believe the tests are invalid or anything was swapped around.

Read the lab documents below. "These findings indicate that Sheila Caffell is unlikely to have loaded cartridges into the magazine shortly before her death" Its a well known fact that trace elements do not stay on living subjects for that long. The magazine could have last been loaded several hours before her death.

Furthermore the XRF results show that Sheila had four times as much lead on her right hand than her left hand. As it goes the same ratio as one of the lab testees. It is no coincidence IMO that Sheila being right handed had four times as much lead on her right hand than her left hand.

Based on the experience and qualifications of the lab staff at FSS Dr Lloyd appears far better qualified:

http://www.expertsearch.co.uk/cgi-bin/find_expert?2870

He stated:

218. Dr Lloyd's conclusions, as apparent from a report with which we were supplied, were principally that the lead found on the handswabs from Sheila Caffell and from those tested in the laboratory came from petrol combustion residues and was not connected with the handling of bullets. Secondly that the handswabs from Sheila Caffell were not qualitatively different from those from the testees. He was critical of the laboratory test saying that swabs should have been taken both before the handling of the bullets so that a comparison could have been made between the two. Accordingly in his opinion the test results were of no assistance to the determination of whether or not Sheila Caffell had handled the cartridges in the same manner as the testees.  

Although it does appear the lab took swabs from the testees before handling the cartridges?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7970.0;attach=10677

The test results show higher amounts of lead on right hands of testees and SC.  If the lead/results (petrol combustion residues according to Dr Lloyd) were from handling the cartridges only then how do you account for the fact that some lead/results were on left hand too?  A right handed person wouldn't touch the cartridges with the left hand?
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #70 on: September 05, 2017, 01:53:36 PM »
Here's a DEFRA leaflet printed in 2005 20 years after WHF:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/221085/pb10973-leadpaintleaflet.pdf

We know that too much lead in our bodies isn’t healthy. Over the last
30 years or so, a lot has been done to get rid of lead in this country,
but you may still come across it in old paint.


Lead was present in everyday items in 1985 and is still in old paintwork.   

The handswab tests are completely meaningless.   

 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #71 on: September 05, 2017, 03:25:09 PM »
http://www.hse.gov.uk/statistics/causdis/lead/lead.pdf

David hows about you meeting me at my local gun shop to make a vid to rival Mike's and Trood's?  A Holls n Dave special?  You could do the recording and all the tech stuff?

I'll get the D Lead test kit:

https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=moz35&p=d+lead+youtube+testing+lead+on+hands#id=1&vid=feeccc9564ac8d525c67dc7edbd763d7&action=click

And arrange for the gun shop to make available the Anshutz mag and Eley subsonic bullets which I will then load into the mag we can then use the D Lead test kit to check my hands for lead?

Can anyone see any flaws in this test?     
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #72 on: September 05, 2017, 03:46:25 PM »
Kill 2 birds with one stone as MF claimed the mere handling of the cartridges caused discolouration to the hands/fingers.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Myster

Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #73 on: September 05, 2017, 06:15:31 PM »
The only major flaw is that on meeting young David you scare the living daylights out of him!
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #74 on: September 05, 2017, 07:07:24 PM »
Nah I often get mixed up with swab swap.. XD

Lead is one of the elements a GSR kit is designed to pick up on. I don't believe the tests are invalid or anything was swapped around.

Read the lab documents below. "These findings indicate that Sheila Caffell is unlikely to have loaded cartridges into the magazine shortly before her death" Its a well known fact that trace elements do not stay on living subjects for that long. The magazine could have last been loaded several hours before her death.

Furthermore the XRF results show that Sheila had four times as much lead on her right hand than her left hand. As it goes the same ratio as one of the lab testees. It is no coincidence IMO that Sheila being right handed had four times as much lead on her right hand than her left hand.

David I am just trying to understand the test results you posted above:

SC's swabs for both hands showed much lower levels than the testees: SW and JH.  The results for JH's right hand were significantly higher than the right hand results of SW.  The left hand results for SW and JH were similar.

If this test was capable of determining whether SC loaded the mag based on lead levels on hand swabs compared with the two scientists who loaded 18 cartridges into the mag I am confused about the following:

- Why did SC have any lead on her hands?  If we're saying well she handled other items containing lead then how do we know that the scientists didn't handle more items or items with a higher lead content?

- Why was JH's right hand result signficiantly greater than SW's right hand?  If they loaded the same number of cartridges surely they would be similar?  If we're saying he handled other items containing lead then how do we know how much lead to attribute to the other items and how much to the cartridges?

- Very approximately the left hand swab for SC and JH show 25% of the result for the right hand and 50% for SW.  Assuming they were all right handed how come lead is on the left hand and if it is from elsewhere how do we know how much to attribute to other items and how much to the cartridges.

- I said up thread that swabs from SW and JH had been taken prior to the tests.  I was thinking this was the control swab but I think this refers to just a clean swab since there's also a control swab for SC. 

Based on the above it seems to me the lab staff had lead on their hands prior to the tests from unrelated items and had simply handled more items containing lead or items containing higher levels of lead than SC had.  Perhaps not surprising.  Two scientists working in a lab most probably car drivers (lead petrol 1985) compared with SC who didn't drive and was down on the farm.

- If the results were indicative of lead from the cartridges only then surely you would expect nothing detected on SC's swabs and very similar results for whichever hand the scientists used and a nothing detected for the hand not used?

As the 2002 appeal note states the hand swabs were not a very important aspect at trial but if I'm right about the above it does show FSS were either grossly incompetent or they were simply providing tests/results to support the prosecution.  For sure there were problems at FSS during the 80's as per the Gov:

3.3.1 Following some high profile quality failures in the 1980s the FSS implemented accreditation to quality standards from 1993 onwards, a world first for forensic science.

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmselect/cmsctech/writev/forensic/m61.htm
   
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?