SC's Palms and Fingers

[Myster]

Yaaawwn!

... and Mark Lundy outdid Jeremy Bamber for the most outrageous OTT feigned grief at a funeral award.

Mind you, he had the advantage of being his former Scout group's comedy actor! 

Around 28:28... http://www.tagtele.com/videos/voir/242397

[Holly Goodhead]

Samson is it worth starting up a thread for the Lundy case? 

I know I asked the question on IA and didn't get a response so I'll ask the same here.  Afaik the prosecution case against ML is that he used his own car to make the journey from the hotel to home ie no talk of borrowing, hiring, stealing a car etc?  In fact I think a prosecution witness claims to have observed a car similar to ML's at his home during a crucial window of time?  Therefore I'm struggling to understand why there's no cctv footage of ML somewhere en route? 

[Myster]

Samson is it worth starting up a thread for the Lundy case? 

I know I asked the question on IA and didn't get a response so I'll ask the same here.  Afaik the prosecution case against ML is that he used his own car to make the journey from the hotel to home ie no talk of borrowing, hiring, stealing a car etc?  In fact I think a prosecution witness claims to have observed a car similar to ML's at his home during a crucial window of time?  Therefore I'm struggling to understand why there's no cctv footage of ML somewhere en route?

Did the video I linked to above play OK, Holly?   I tried it on a different computer this morning without success.

[Holly Goodhead]

Did the video I linked to above play OK, Holly?   I tried it on a different computer this morning without success.

Yes, thank-you.  I started watching then realised it went on for some 40 mins so will watch later.

[Holly Goodhead]

Yaaawwn!

... and Mark Lundy outdid Jeremy Bamber for the most outrageous OTT feigned grief at a funeral award.

Mind you, he had the advantage of being his former Scout group's comedy actor! 

Around 28:28... http://www.tagtele.com/videos/voir/242397

Watched it in full now.  Thanks.

It reminds me so much of the docu-dramas about JB: big on ML's behaviour and lay witness testimony but short on expert testimony and forensic evidence.  Also there's no evidence the psychologist who contributed formally assessed ML.  He just seems to think ML is a narcissist based on some pretty spurious reasons imo.

I know squat about the case and have no idea whatsoever whether ML is guilty or innocent but there's nothing in this docu/drama that does it for me.

Blimey Samson are most Kiwis grossly overweight with an appalling dress sense? 

[Myster]

Watched it in full now.  Thanks.

It reminds me so much of the docu-dramas about JB: big on ML's behaviour and lay witness testimony but short on expert testimony and forensic evidence.  Also there's no evidence the psychologist who contributed formally assessed ML.  He just seems to think ML is a narcissist based on some pretty spurious reasons imo.

I know squat about the case and have no idea whatsoever whether ML is guilty or innocent but there's nothing in this docu/drama that does it for me.

Blimey Samson are most Kiwis grossly overweight with an appalling dress sense?

I had to laugh at that ridiculous mock fainting fiasco.  It even counfounded Lundy's drama coach!

And his uncaring spendthrift behaviour in the days/weeks afterwards echoed Bamber to a tee.  So obvious that he was planning a future life without his wife (and burdensome daughter) and looking forward to building a house entirely for his own narcissistic self, once he'd gotten his hands on her life insurance payout.

As far as I can see, like others family murders before (Newall, Menendez, Seddon, Bamber), it was a crime based on greed for a hefty payout, not on excessive overkill for just a cheap jewellry box.

[Holly Goodhead]

I had to laugh at that ridiculous mock fainting fiasco.  It even counfounded Lundy's drama coach!

And his uncaring spendthrift behaviour in the days/weeks afterwards echoed Bamber to a tee.  So obvious that he was planning a future life without his wife (and burdensome daughter) and looking forward to building a house entirely for his own narcissistic self, once he'd gotten his hands on her life insurance payout.

As far as I can see, like others family murders before (Newall, Menendez, Seddon, Bamber), it was a crime based on greed for a hefty payout, not on excessive overkill for just a cheap jewellry box.

The victims were found dead on 29th Aug 2000 and ML arrested and charged Feb 2001.  If strong evidence existed linking ML to the crime why the delay? 

[Myster]

The victims were found dead on 29th Aug 2000 and ML arrested and charged Feb 2001.  If strong evidence existed linking ML to the crime why the delay?

I don't know enough about it, so need to find out a lot more before committing one way or the other. Questions concerning his journey times seem to be the main stumbling block.

[Holly Goodhead]

I don't know enough about it, so need to find out a lot more before committing one way or the other. Questions concerning his journey times seem to be the main stumbling block.

It seems the proseuction case is based on the following:

- Two tiny specs of matter found on polo shirt belonging to ML.  The matter supposedly Christine's brain tissue.

-  Paint found in the victims' hair said to match paint ML used to mark up his tools.  The murder weapon wasn't found but thought to have been a small tomahawk or the like.

- Timings in terms of tod.  Various bits here about the journey from the motel and back and when a home computer was turned off. 

[Caroline]

I had to laugh at that ridiculous mock fainting fiasco.  It even counfounded Lundy's drama coach!

And his uncaring spendthrift behaviour in the days/weeks afterwards echoed Bamber to a tee.  So obvious that he was planning a future life without his wife (and burdensome daughter) and looking forward to building a house entirely for his own narcissistic self, once he'd gotten his hands on her life insurance payout.

As far as I can see, like others family murders before (Newall, Menendez, Seddon, Bamber), it was a crime based on greed for a hefty payout, not on excessive overkill for just a cheap jewellry box.

The fainting fiasco is the only bit I have seen so far, it would be quite funny were it not so sad.

[Myster]

The fainting fiasco is the only bit I have seen so far, it would be quite funny were it not so sad.

I feel sorry for the two mates who were conned into holding him up and taken in by his absurd scam!

[Holly Goodhead]

Reading up on the case of David Bain got me thinking again about the above.  The NZ police appear to have made the same mistakes as EP over the taking of GSR samples.  However in DB's case I've been unable to find anything about other tests on hands eg for lead or other chemicals used in the production of bullets.  I've often wondered about this in relation to JB's case as lead on hands doesn't seem to feature as a regular forensic test?  It seems bullets found at soc are tested for the presence of lead along with other other chemiclas in an attempt to identify the bullets used where bullets found are unrecognisable. 

At JB's 2002 appeal much was made about the lead tests and swabs and yet no mention of GSR tests which is the norm.

 &%+((£

[Holly Goodhead]

I have an electronic copy of 'Practical Aspects of Firearms, Ballistics, and Forensic Techniques' by Dr Vincent DiMaio and have just searched for 'LEAD' and it has only turned up lead poisoning from lead bullets entering the body. 

[Holly Goodhead]

Looked on the websites of UK based providers of forensic services under ballistics and trace evidence and can't find any tests for lead from handling bullets or indeed any other tests for handling alone, only GSR upon discharge of firearm. 

It seems to me testing for lead from a suspects hands are not routinely used or if they were they have been discredited and are no longer used.

[Holly Goodhead]

Ok I've got it now and think this will make yet another nice little add on to a third and final appeal resulting in an acquittal.  It's necessary to refer back to the CoA doc:

http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html

176. It is necessary to start by examining those parts of the evidence which are not in issue. It is clear that the police from an early stage appreciated the possible significance of the state of Sheila Caffell's hands and of anything that might connect them with the use of the gun. To preserve any available evidence, the hands were covered with plastic bags before the body was removed. When the post-mortem examination of the bodies of Nevill Bamber & Sheila Caffell took place later that day an officer, DC Hammersley, took swabs from the hands of Sheila Caffell using a special kit made for taking samples for testing for firearm residues. He labelled the swabs with the reference DRH/33. There is evidence from which it can be established that these samples were taken at 3.15 p.m. on 7 August.

So the kit used to swab SC's hands was designed for testing firearm residues as in gunshot residue.  When a firearm is discharged ie particles made up of various matter which are dispelled from the muzzle when the bullet exits and/or possibly the casing from the ejection port.  The kit was not designed to test for lead but this is what ended up happening:

197. Mr Wingard was asked whether in any event he would expect to see a record of the rejection in the statements provided by the scientists. He said that it would very much depend on the reason for the rejection and its possible effect on the outcome of the tests. It was not normal to recount the history unless it had a bearing on the evidential value of the conclusions. If rejection might in any way invalidate conclusions that might be drawn from the evidence of the tests, then he would expect that it would be recorded. However, that was not the situation here since there was no way in which contamination by proximity to firearms could have decreased the quantity of lead found on the swabs from Sheila Caffell's hands. The rejection, and the reasons for it were, therefore, not relevant to the inference suggested from the testing that Sheila Caffell had not been responsible for the repeated handling of the bullets. He made clear that the testing was for the presence of lead, and was not testing for firearms residue as such.

It's difficult to know whether those involved at FSS were complicit with EP in fabricating evidence or grossly incompetent.  Michael Turner QC and the judges obviously fall into the latter category.

The test was completely invalid.