Author Topic: SC's Palms and Fingers  (Read 39123 times)

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Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #150 on: February 04, 2018, 11:02:05 PM »
And how come Dr Vanezis and Prof Knight overlooked what you think you can see on soc images assuming these images were made available to defence? and the images you are looking at haven't been doctored?
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

david1819

  • Guest
Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #151 on: February 05, 2018, 01:09:30 AM »
And how come Dr Vanezis and Prof Knight overlooked what you think you can see on soc images assuming these images were made available to defence? and the images you are looking at haven't been doctored?

Neither Knight or Vanezis were asked if they could give an opinion on the TOD based on the photos. I doubt Vanezis would give an opinion in court on photos alone.

Rivlin should have asked DI Cook how easy it was for him to move Sheilas hand/arm and when he moved it was it relaxed or slighly stiff ect ect. Then he should have shown Vanezis both the photos before and after combined with DI Cooks answer. Then asked Vanezis for a time a frame.

As for Bernard Knight here are some of his answers to questions at JBs trial.

"Oh, anything can happen in forensic medicine. One can never exclude anything."

"Almost nothing is impossible in forensic medicine."

There is not much point in asking Knight anything if he thinks anything is possible and cites Agatha Christie crime fiction novels for claiming things are possible. There is also no point in relying on Dr Craig who cant see whats right infront of him. If you want to rely on Knight and Craig to find the answers thats your problem not mine.

david1819

  • Guest
Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #152 on: February 05, 2018, 02:57:55 AM »
And how come Dr Vanezis and Prof Knight overlooked what you think you can see on soc images assuming these images were made available to defence? and the images you are looking at haven't been doctored?

The allegation that Di-Stefano doctored the photo submitted in 2005 is unfounded. Because other photos exist showing the same thing that have no link to Di-Stefano.

Futhermore that photo has been disclosed via the CCRC. So who would be stuipd enough the send them back the same photo looking very different from when they handed it over a year prior?


Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #153 on: February 05, 2018, 10:19:58 AM »
The allegation that Di-Stefano doctored the photo submitted in 2005 is unfounded. Because other photos exist showing the same thing that have no link to Di-Stefano.

Futhermore that photo has been disclosed via the CCRC. So who would be stuipd enough the send them back the same photo looking very different from when they handed it over a year prior?

But the images you posted on IA show completely different background colours when comparing June and SC?  Had SC taken her own life shortly before the raid team entered or shortly afterwards I think it would be rather obvious to the numerous police officers.  The firearms team are trained to be observant.   Officers observed many incidentals eg A/PS Woodcock noted a box of Tampons on SC's bed and yet you would have us believe SC was in a completely different state in terms of Lividity/RM which everyone overlooked except you?  And this is despite the fact you weren't there but have come across images hitherto unseen?  You will forgive me being sceptical.

DI Cook lifted SC's arm he didn't need to bend it or manipulate it in some way.  Anyway when he did this it was 2 - 3 hours after raid team entered. 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Caroline

Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #154 on: February 05, 2018, 08:53:59 PM »
http://www.hse.gov.uk/statistics/causdis/lead/lead.pdf

David hows about you meeting me at my local gun shop to make a vid to rival Mike's and Trood's?  A Holls n Dave special?  You could do the recording and all the tech stuff?

I'll get the D Lead test kit:

https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=moz35&p=d+lead+youtube+testing+lead+on+hands#id=1&vid=feeccc9564ac8d525c67dc7edbd763d7&action=click

And arrange for the gun shop to make available the Anshutz mag and Eley subsonic bullets which I will then load into the mag we can then use the D Lead test kit to check my hands for lead?

Can anyone see any flaws in this test?     

Think I have alread stated the flaws but it would be interesting to see what happens.

Offline Caroline

Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #155 on: February 05, 2018, 08:54:52 PM »
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,9173.msg431364.html?PHPSESSID=2qg62bui5t6e94m05lrdj62391#msg431364

Where Caroline refers to "beauty products" I'm assuming she is referring to cleansers, moisturisers etc many of which contain copper and zinc.  This is how common these chemicals are in everyday items so trying to connect them with the cartridges is imo futile.

Exactly.

Offline Caroline

Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #156 on: February 05, 2018, 09:01:06 PM »
But the images you posted on IA show completely different background colours when comparing June and SC?  Had SC taken her own life shortly before the raid team entered or shortly afterwards I think it would be rather obvious to the numerous police officers.  The firearms team are trained to be observant.   Officers observed many incidentals eg A/PS Woodcock noted a box of Tampons on SC's bed and yet you would have us believe SC was in a completely different state in terms of Lividity/RM which everyone overlooked except you?  And this is despite the fact you weren't there but have come across images hitherto unseen?  You will forgive me being sceptical.

DI Cook lifted SC's arm he didn't need to bend it or manipulate it in some way.  Anyway when he did this it was 2 - 3 hours after raid team entered.

Totally agree!

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #157 on: February 05, 2018, 10:19:11 PM »
Neither Knight or Vanezis were asked if they could give an opinion on the TOD based on the photos. I doubt Vanezis would give an opinion in court on photos alone.

Rivlin should have asked DI Cook how easy it was for him to move Sheilas hand/arm and when he moved it was it relaxed or slighly stiff ect ect. Then he should have shown Vanezis both the photos before and after combined with DI Cooks answer. Then asked Vanezis for a time a frame.

As for Bernard Knight here are some of his answers to questions at JBs trial.

"Oh, anything can happen in forensic medicine. One can never exclude anything."

"Almost nothing is impossible in forensic medicine."

There is not much point in asking Knight anything if he thinks anything is possible and cites Agatha Christie crime fiction novels for claiming things are possible. There is also no point in relying on Dr Craig who cant see whats right infront of him. If you want to rely on Knight and Craig to find the answers thats your problem not mine.

Are you able to cite other cases where pathologists have been able to provide a TOD within a narrow timeframe eg 4 hours thus providing the accused with a rock solid alibi?

I think Prof Knight was extremely helpful to the defence.  I can't help thinking you disagree on the basis his testimony doesn't align with your theories. 
 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #158 on: February 05, 2018, 10:49:58 PM »
Think I have alread stated the flaws but it would be interesting to see what happens.

Pity David doesn't seem up to playing the leading man. 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Caroline

Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #159 on: February 07, 2018, 07:04:24 PM »
Pity David doesn't seem up to playing the leading man.

Perhaps because he doesn't have the capacity to be either?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #160 on: February 09, 2018, 11:26:38 AM »
Are you able to cite other cases where pathologists have been able to provide a TOD within a narrow timeframe eg 4 hours thus providing the accused with a rock solid alibi?

I think Prof Knight was extremely helpful to the defence.  I can't help thinking you disagree on the basis his testimony doesn't align with your theories. 
 

David have you been able to find any cases where pathologists, at PM or from SOC/PM inages, have been able to narrow down the TOD thus providing the suspect/accused with a rock solid alibi? 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #161 on: February 09, 2018, 12:07:00 PM »
David I have provided numerous examples of everyday items containing the trace elements found on handswabs taken from SC and testees.  Gunmetal can also contain copper, zinc and lead amongst other elements. 

http://copperalliance.eu/about-copper/alloys/gunmetal

Are you able to cite any other criminal case in the UK or elsewhere where handswab evidence has been used in an attempt to show victim/perp did/didn't handle X because Y was/wasn't found on handswab?  I don't believe you will find such as IMO the test is fatally flawed but I will stand corrected if you are able to show me otherwise.

The reason gunshot residue (GSR) features as a recognised forensic test throughout the world is that upon firearm discharge it generates GSR which is unique in that it contains particles comprised of many elements not found elsewhere.  To qualify as GSR a particle must contain a number of elements. 

215. At trial Mr Elliott had given evidence of the results of testing the swabs for lead, which included information about other elements detectable on the swab. He had also given evidence of the comparative tests carried out on other scientists after they had handled ammunition from the same source as that used in the killings and loaded it into the magazine. The tests were said to demonstrate appreciably higher lead levels on the scientists' hands than were found on the swabs taken from the hands of Sheila Caffell. This was put forward as evidence that Sheila Caffell had not handled the cartridges in a manner consistent with her being the killer.

216. At trial, Mr Rivlin QC, who appeared for the appellant at trial, sought to counteract this evidence in two ways. First in cross-examination of the scientist, he drew his attention to traces of other elements in the test results from the swabs, iron and copper, and queried whether these were significant. The scientist said that they were no more than might have been obtained from the atmosphere. He did not think the copper could have come from the bullets unless they had been scratched. The other defence approach to this evidence was the theory of ritualistic washing to which reference has earlier been made.


Assuming the above is correct why did Elliot refer to the non-lead elements being obtained from the atmosphere when they may have originated from handling the magazine?  Just one example as washing alone certainly doesn't remove lead and may well not remove other existing elements either.  Elliot attempts to muddy the water with the potential of a scratched cartridge (he refers to the cartridge as bullet) which you seem to be hanging your hat on along with SC taking her life much later.  You're wildly wrong IMO.  This test is fatally flawed and the results presented at trial were utterly meaningless IMO.   
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #162 on: February 12, 2018, 03:30:56 PM »
Just to clear things up.

Fact-  Brian Elliot said at trial the testees washed their hands prior to doing the experiment.

Fact-  Rivlin and Munday brought up the similar levels of copper and iron between SC and the testees. Along with the different levels of copper between the SC control swab and the hand swabs.

I believe Rivlin and Munday were onto something too little too late because its not going to fit in with their ritualistic cleansing argument. Make sense?

My explanation for the graphs is that SC loaded the lead coated bullets into the magazine. This also resulted in brass scrapings going onto her left hand that was holding the magazine. Hence higher levels of lead on her right hand and higher levels of copper on her left hand. and the similar copper levels on the testees.

Of course I am not arguing this in isolation proves that happened. But it fits into the bigger picture of things.

I have overlapped some of the XRF charts. The first one shows SC control swab in green, left hand in pink and right and in red.

The second chart shows SC left hand in pink and testee SW left hand in blue.

I plan to make more when I get more time  8((()*/

David I'm struggling to decipher all the chemical elements on the graph:

Potassium?
Calcium
Ch ?
Iron
Copper
Zinc
Lead
Bromide?
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #163 on: February 12, 2018, 09:41:25 PM »
David I'm struggling to decipher all the chemical elements on the graph:

Potassium?
Calcium
Ch ?
Iron
Copper
Zinc
Lead
Bromide?

I ended up as part of a lock-in last night in the local boozer.  The manager has a degree in applied chemistry from Edinburgh and has agreed to take a look at the graphs and bumf.  Strange choice of career but said he prefers it to working at GSK.  He did say:

- the chemical elements in the middle of the periodic table bond easily to anything
- the lead on hands could originate from leaded petrol in the atmosphere.  I assume this is what Dr Lloyd was referring to "petrol combustion residues".
- he thought it unlikely the lead on the bullets would be capable of penetrating the paraffin wax and contaminating the hands.

I might invite him to take part in my vid. 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #164 on: February 12, 2018, 09:54:07 PM »
I ended up as part of a lock-in last night in the local boozer.  The manager has a degree in applied chemistry from Edinburgh and has agreed to take a look at the graphs and bumf.  Strange choice of career but said he prefers it to working at GSK.  He did say:

- the chemical elements in the middle of the periodic table bond easily to anything
- the lead on hands could originate from leaded petrol in the atmosphere.  I assume this is what Dr Lloyd was referring to "petrol combustion residues".
- he thought it unlikely the lead on the bullets would be capable of penetrating the paraffin wax and contaminating the hands.

I might invite him to take part in my vid.

David forgot to add can you clarify the chem. elements for me please so I can discuss with the above.  Thanks. 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?