Author Topic: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?  (Read 13976 times)

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Offline Leonora

Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #75 on: September 06, 2017, 03:43:04 PM »
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But, people see this in different ways. When, for example, I point out that no forensics were found in the flat that pointed to VT having been in there, I'm told that he must have cleaned up thoroughly.
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What you SHOULD point out is that none of the prosecution witnesses told the jury anything in court about the forensic examination of the flat, even though the news media reported at the time that such an examination took place, and the jury members saw chemical residues when they visited the flat. During the two-day cross-examination of the defendant, neither Counsel asked him if he had cleaned up after killing Joanna. If the trial had been anything other than phoney, Counsel for the Defence would have asked the witnesses from LGC what forensic evidence against his client had been found in the flat, and if they had answered, "none", Counsel for the Prosecution would have been obliged to cross-examine the defendant to discover if he had cleaned up after him.

Offline Leonora

Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #76 on: September 06, 2017, 03:55:53 PM »
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When I point out that so much fire and rescue equipment was used to retrieve Joanna's body that it is doubtful that she could have been found on a verge, people just tell me that it was all needed because the body was frozen.
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Did the news media report that this equipment, manned by 23 officers, was needed to recover the body? - No, they did not. What does that tell these people? - That the media were prohibited from reporting it, on pain of banishment from the next press conference.

Did the FoI document give the full co-ordinates of the location of the body to be recovered? - No, only to the nearest 1000 metres. What does that tell these people? - That Joanna's body lay up to 1000 metres away from the grass verge where the jury was told she laż.

Was the jury told about the 23 officers and their equipment? - No. What does this tell these people about the trial? - That is was phoney through and through, and even the Home Office pathologist was being economical with the truth.

Offline Leonora

Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #77 on: September 06, 2017, 04:08:27 PM »
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When I point out that timestamps were missing from the various  CCTVs that showed VT, some people do not seem to think this is suspicious.
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What you SHOULD point out is that no witness under oath testified to the integrity of any of the CCTV clips shown to the court, nor to the times and dates that had been removed. You should point out that the chroma component had been redacted out of the CCTV clips from the Bristol Ram pub, but could not entirely disguise the fact that the blouse Joanna was wearing in the pub did not fit the description of the blouse found on the body.

This deliberate interference with evidence suggests that the police and the lawyers knew very that Joanna's death occurred on the Saturday or Sunday, when Vincent Tabak had an alibi and Joanna had changed clothes at least once. If they really believed that she had changed her blouse just after getting home, and was then killed by Vincent Tabak the same evening, Counsel for the Prosecution would have been obliged to ask the defendant what colour blouse she was wearing, and he would certainly have been able to remember, if it really were he who had strangled her.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 11:30:38 AM by Leonora »

Offline Leonora

Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #78 on: September 07, 2017, 12:00:03 PM »
Most people believe in low copy DNA as reliable evidence, yet it's quite easy to find articles saying that it's not.
You can lead a sceptic to the water trough, but you canot make him drink. On the other hand, you can draw these people's attention to Lindsay Lennen's remark when she was interviewed some months after the trial by a journalist from The Guardian. She expressed disappointment that her own DNA forensic evidence in the Joanna Yeates case had not been tested in court. As a prosecution witness during the trial, she was cross-examined by Defence QC William Clegg, who made no effort to discredit her DNA testimony. Instead, he put to her a succession of lengthy questions (requiring only short answers such as "Yes", "No", or "Possibly") that actually reinforced the case AGAINST his client.

This is just one more concrete example that proves that Mr Clegg was busy scoring own-goals, and that Mr Justice Field was not raising his eyebrows as a normal judge would have done.

The company for whom she worked, LGC Forensics, state that their analysis was carried out after enhancing the DNA, by a process on which they hold patents. They don't use the term "Low copy number".

Offline [...]

Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #79 on: September 07, 2017, 12:03:08 PM »
What you SHOULD point out is that no witness under oath testified to the integrity of any of the CCTV clips shown to the court, nor to the times and dates that had been removed. You should point out that the chroma component had been redacted out of the CCTV clips from the Bristol Ram pub, but could not entirely disguise the fact that the blouse Joanna was wearing in the pub did not fit the description of the blouse found on the body.

This deliberate interference with evidence suggests that the police and the lawyers knew very that Joanna's death occurred on the Saturday or Sunday, when Vincent Tabak had an alibi and Joanna had changed clothes at least once. If they really believed that she had changed her blouse just after getting home, and was then killed by Vincent Tabak the same evening, Counsel for the Prosecution would have been obliged to ask the defendant what colour blouse she was wearing, and he would certainly have been able to remember, if it really were he who had strangled her.

In the Police Conference they say that the didn't know when she was killed....  She could have been killed any time over that weekend... But they needed the  story to fit Dr Vincent Tabak's only time alone.... Thats why the screams come into play...

Thiose screams are pointless... They do not prove that they came from Joanna Yeates flat.... There were screams the Police ignored because it didn't fit with Dr Vincent Tabak....

The ones that Kingdom heard... Kingdom who lived directly behind Joanna Yeates bedroom window I believe .... Mid Morning on the Saturday 18th December 2010 he heard someone say something like..."Help me"....

Now that sounds more like someone in trouble....  Than the screams from party goers on the Friday... DI Joe Goff does say on The Crime Watch program that was aired after the trial... That it was the screams that gave them the time of her murder.....

Which is ridiculous.... (IMO)...

Offline mrswah

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Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #80 on: September 07, 2017, 12:14:53 PM »
Yes, IMO, too, totally ridiculous.

I have often heard "screams" around here, especially on Friday and Saturday nights, but nobody has been murdered. I suppose there is the odd "domestic", but it's usually youngsters messing about/"enjoying themselves".

There were parties going on in Clifton on that Friday night. Also, the area is full of students. Some would have gone home for Christmas by then, but I would imagine many were still around, enjoying the nightlife that Bristol has to offer. There is at least one hall of residence in Clifton.

Also the possibility of people having slipped on the ice.

Offline Leonora

Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #81 on: September 07, 2017, 12:28:44 PM »
Most people believe in VT's so-called "confession", and don't believe that he was anything but sane when he made it (if indeed he did make it). Yet, false memory syndrome and duress are recognised phenomena, and we have no idea how VT was treated in custody.
Most of these people will also have seen on TV or read detective stories in which a suspect makes a confession, which is rejected by the wise detective, who is able to work out that the suspect is protecting someone they love, who often turns out not to have been the culprit anyway. You could ask any of these people which kind of police they prefer - those who act wisely and fairly, or those who don't mind arresting the wrong suspect, and are only interested in convicting somebody, regardless of whether they did it or not.

There isn't much evidence to support a theory that the guilty plea attributed to Vincent Tabak was a result of false memory syndrome or ill-treatment in custody, but there are at least 13 separate items of evidence that suggest that his plea via video-link was entered by an imposter. We know for a fact that no one in courtroom 2 at the Old Bailey knew Vincent Tabak personally - not even his girlfriend Tanja was there - and most of the people whom we know WERE in court, definitely had never met him before.

Offline Leonora

Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #82 on: September 07, 2017, 01:50:44 PM »

Wow leonora... I am naive as the day is long......  I didn't actually know they did training for this:

I know you said it needs to be discussed elsewhere, maybe you could start a new thread on this topic.... I believe it is very much warranted!

http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/updating-ethics-trainingpolicing-privacy-series-noble-cause-corruption-and-police-discretion/

https://www.policeone.com/chiefs-sheriffs/articles/2003646-Noble-cause-corruption-Do-the-ends-justify-the-means/
I don't think a new thread is needed, but I appreciate your reaction, as there is indeed some evidence that the conspiracy or cover-up may have a higher purpose than the sordid protection of a clever serial killer or powerful group of unpleasant citizens.

(1) The absence of any books about the case written by independent investigators

(2) The myriad of TV films re-telling the whole crazy story that you couldn't make up even if you tried

(3) The systematic trolling of internet discussions like this one

(4) The massive propaganda in support of the poor vilified landlord by the wicked tabloid press

The question for us is whether this imagined higher cause is synonymous with the "national interest" - versus, e.g., the interests of the Netherlands as a nation, mobile EU citizens, the architecture industry? - or merely the desparate protection of the reputation of the police confronted with a serial killer so smart that no one can touch him?

One of the elephants in the room is the problem of "bad law" - law that turns responsible citizens into criminals. Because nobody talks about this, there is no great awareness that all laws contain unethical elements, and many laws, indeed, are 100% contrary to the widely agreed moral values of the jurisdiction that administers them.

As far as I am aware, Mr Clegg didn't break any laws by conspiring with the prosecution, nor did Vincent Tabak break any laws by signing an enhanced statement that he knew to be a pack of lies, in return for whatever agreement his lawyers may have negotiated for him. It is indeed possible that he had committed some sort of white-collar compuper-aided crime, unknown to us, for which he wass morally obliged to serve 9 months sentence in prison.

Offline Geraldine

Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #83 on: May 28, 2018, 09:24:41 AM »
Hello everybody, I just had a quick skim through this thread.  My one question is this: Why would anybody plead guilty to something that they hadn't done? He admitted to killing Joanna (manslaughter).  Sure if you were innocent you would never hold your hand up to killing someone? Genuine question.  I just can't get my head around it. Also wasn't his saliva found on Joanna (although I believe that some police are corrupt, some are thugs - but there are also many honest, dedicated officers).

This is an interesting thread folks!

Offline John

Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #84 on: May 28, 2018, 09:44:57 AM »
Hello everybody, I just had a quick skim through this thread.  My one question is this: Why would anybody plead guilty to something that they hadn't done? He admitted to killing Joanna (manslaughter).  Sure if you were innocent you would never hold your hand up to killing someone? Genuine question.  I just can't get my head around it. Also wasn't his saliva found on Joanna (although I believe that some police are corrupt, some are thugs - but there are also many honest, dedicated officers).

This is an interesting thread folks!

I completely agree.  Tabak went to the trouble of researching murder and manslaughter on his computer before his arrest which indicates that he had already begun to face the inevitable.  He was hoping that his plea to accidental killing or manslaughter would be accepted by the CPS which would have seen him serve a relatively short prison sentence.  In the end though the CPS was having none of it.  The fact that he continued to throttle Joana until she expired was his undoing IMO.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposť of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Geraldine

Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #85 on: May 28, 2018, 10:02:39 AM »
Hi John, yes I guess you wouldn't just be researching sentences for murder vs manslaughter unless you had some kind of interest?  Also if it had been a random attacker they would not have taken Joanna's body away - which points to someone connected to the flats/Joanna. A random attacker would just have fled IMO.

But again why on God's green earth would any body in their right mind admit to killing someone if they had not done so. I would go to my grave shouting my innocence.

I'm going to read through the thread in more depth,  I am always interested to read about all opinions

Offline John

Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #86 on: May 28, 2018, 10:33:11 AM »
Hi John, yes I guess you wouldn't just be researching sentences for murder vs manslaughter unless you had some kind of interest?  Also if it had been a random attacker they would not have taken Joanna's body away - which points to someone connected to the flats/Joanna. A random attacker would just have fled IMO.

But again why on God's green earth would any body in their right mind admit to killing someone if they had not done so. I would go to my grave shouting my innocence.

I'm going to read through the thread in more depth,  I am always interested to read about all opinions

My personal experience of people in such situations reveals that not everyone has the strength to fight miscarriages. Many admit to crimes just to get it over and done with as quickly as possible, a trial invokes a terrible dread in some.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposť of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Geraldine

Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #87 on: May 28, 2018, 02:43:29 PM »
I can relate to that, a trial can be overwhelming.  I know this from bitter experience, having supported a family member who was stitched up by the police (thankfully the jury saw sense). For something like shoplifting or criminal damage maybe, but not killing someone.  I cannot get my head round that. I believe that Tabak is guilty of the murder of Joanna.

Offline mrswah

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Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #88 on: May 28, 2018, 08:20:52 PM »
Hi Geraldine, and welcome to the thread. It is always good to hear the views of somebody new!!  We don't get many new posters.

I haven't posted much on here recently, merely because I feel I have said all I have to say about this case (unless any new developments come to light).  I began the thread because I felt that there was a lot that seemed "iffy" about the case, but of course, I cannot be sure that Vincent Tabak is innocent----I don't know him, and I don't know anyone who does know him.

I can imagine someone admitting to having committed a crime (even manslaughter or murder) if they were medicated enough, sleep deprived enough,or  had undergone relentless questioning, so much that they didn't know what was what any more. I cannot be sure this happened in VT's case, but it is possible, in my opinion.

Please do read through the threads. I look forward to your comments.

Offline Geraldine

Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #89 on: May 29, 2018, 07:52:43 AM »
Hi mrswah and thanks for the welcome. I will for sure read through these threads in depth and let you know my thoughts.  I appreciate what you say about people confessing under stress etc - think about poor Stefan Kiskzo back in the 70s.  But that was before PACE, and all interviews are taped now of course.  That said, I will devote some time to a thorough read of the thread. 

I remember thinking how heart-breaking this case was, and just so bizarre - a lady attacked and killed in her own home whilst doing something we have all done, just relaxing and having a little supper after a works xmas party. Also poor Mr Jefferys the landlord who was falsely arrested and had horrible stories plastered all over the press about him. Hoping that Joanna's family and Mr Jefferys have found the strength to try and carry on with their lives.