Scene Of Crime Reconstruction

[Holly Goodhead]

If Bamber was trying to get the massacre compete without any reloads, then 7/8 bullets fired in the main bedroom would have meant 3 bullets were left for Sheila & the twins. Dependent on whether the rifle had 10 or 11 bullets inside.

However Nevill getting downstairs, June moving out of bed & Sheila still being alive after one shot meant a reload was needed. Once he reloads once he might as well do it twice to make sure everyone is dead & make it look like a crazy attack.

I suspect Bamber was attempting to get the massacre complete without reloading. As people would ask if Sheila could reload.  However he was aware that there was a possibility this may not be achieved.

SC suffered a mental illness.  There's no evidence she suffered any learning disability.  Loading a mag, attaching it to a rifle and chambering a round is not rocket science.  Easy as replacing a battery in a tv remote and changing channels or emptying a hoover bin etc.   To suggest otherwise is imo sexist nonsense.  Had SC been a same sex sibling who had hitherto shown no 'interest' in guns I doubt anyone would question her ability to carry out the "massacre".   

The main players at the 1986 trial were born in the 30's and 40's and may well have held sterotypical views about women being all sweetness and light! 

 

[Holly Goodhead]

LOL indeed! NB was shot upstairs x 4 and in the kitchen x 4 as per the evidence: blood, casings and pathological.  Evidence collected by DC Hammersley and photographed by DC Bird. 

I don't on the basis he has a poor understanding of his case.  After the above I curtailed contact as it was clear he was unable to assist.  I wrote to him requesting soc photos of the casings in the main bedroom and he responded as above. 

The above seems to emante from Mike who has been an unmitigated disaster for JB.  I will retrieve Mike's old posts later.

Here's one of many posts from Mike asserting cases were moved from the kitchen to the bedroom to "accommodate prosecutions case against Jeremy":

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,986.msg29877.html#msg29877 

No, actually Mike the cases in the main bedroom support JB's innocence.  The fact you've been looking at this for some 25/30 years and have been unable to figure it out just proves you're the ultimate Northern Numpty.  Moron.   

[adam]

Hello Adam 

Yes very interesting!  In the US such a shooting incidence yields indisuputable forensic evidence not theories!  Do you have any info re Malcolm Fletcher's professional qualifications and experience in cases involving shootings?

I know nothing about Malcolm Fletcher.

However people have asked how Nevill was supposed to have got past Bamber in the bedroom. In my view Bamber would have retreated as Nevill was a big man. However it could also be that Bamber had gone to get Sheila leaving Nevill with a chance to go downstairs.

[adam]

The pathological evidence makes clear NB was incapable of purposeful speech after the gsw's to his lip and jaw which were clearly sustained upstairs so no tel calls having been shot upstairs.

I guess if one is being shot at it's instinctive to move away from gunfire.  Imo NB fled downstairs with the perp behind, but why not exit the main door (at bottom of main stairs)?  Instead NB fled to kitchen.  Maybe an attempt to resume tel contact with JB hence bloody fingerprints on the kitchen worktop?

That is a good point. Although at the time Nevill would not realise he would not be able to speak. But able to speak or not, it was too late for phone calls.

What was in the kitchen ? An exit I assume. Where was the gun cupboard in relation to the kitchen. The kitchen would obviously include things such as knives which could be used by Nevill.

[adam]

SC suffered a mental illness.  There's no evidence she suffered any learning disability.  Loading a mag, attaching it to a rifle and chambering a round is not rocket science.  Easy as replacing a battery in a tv remote and changing channels or emptying a hoover bin etc.   To suggest otherwise is imo sexist nonsense.  Had SC been a same sex sibling who had hitherto shown no 'interest' in guns I doubt anyone would question her ability to carry out the "massacre".   

The main players at the 1986 trial were born in the 30's and 40's and may well have held sterotypical views about women being all sweetness and light!

I don't know how to breach, chamber & load a rifle. Then again I've never (perhsps) been on a shooting party 10 years ago.

[Holly Goodhead]

I know nothing about Malcolm Fletcher.

However people have asked how Nevill was supposed to have got past Bamber in the bedroom. In my view Bamber would have retreated as Nevill was a big man. However it could also be that Bamber had gone to get Sheila leaving Nevill with a chance to go downstairs.

If JB retreated how did NB sustain the gsw's to the back of his shoulder and elbow/chest which were clearly sustained upstairs based on casings?   

I don't think JB would allow NB out of his sight.  As you said it may not have been immediately apparent NB was incapable of purposeful speech and therefore JB would fear NB using the tel or fleeing WHF to raise the alarm.

[Holly Goodhead]

That is a good point. Although at the time Nevill would not realise he would not be able to speak. But able to speak or not, it was too late for phone calls.

What was in the kitchen ? An exit I assume. Where was the gun cupboard in relation to the kitchen. The kitchen would obviously include things such as knives which could be used by Nevill.

Too late for tel calls based on pathological evidence.

I assume all sorts of sharp implements in the kitchen.  En route to back door and gun cupboard.

[Holly Goodhead]

I don't know how to breach, chamber & load a rifle. Then again I've never (perhsps) been on a shooting party 10 years ago.

But anyone growing up on a farm surrounded by firearms and those that used them would soon pick it up by observation unless they had learning difficulties and there's no evidence SC wasn't at least of average intelligence. 

[adam]

But anyone growing up on a farm surrounded by firearms and those that used them would soon pick it up by observation unless they had learning difficulties and there's no evidence SC wasn't at least of average intelligence.

I don't agree with that. Bamber testified Sheila had 'limited' knowledge of guns. Probably 'limited' because he couldn't say 'no'.

[Samson]

If Bamber was trying to get the massacre compete without any reloads, then 7/8 bullets fired in the main bedroom would have meant 3 bullets were left for Sheila & the twins. Dependent on whether the rifle had 10 or 11 bullets inside.

However Nevill getting downstairs, June moving out of bed & Sheila still being alive after one shot meant a reload was needed. Once he reloads once he might as well do it twice to make sure everyone is dead & make it look like a crazy attack.

I suspect Bamber was attempting to get the massacre complete without reloading. As people would ask if Sheila could reload.  However he was aware that there was a possibility this may not be achieved.

I guess by the time he has spent the first 5 bullets on mum, he gets his brain into gear and says woops, better start on the others. 
Just thinking aloud here, do you think it might have been a tidier scene if he had shot dad first??
If the answer is yes, why did he shoot mum first.
If the answer is no, please show your working.
Thank you.

[Samson]

Samson intended to start up the above but seems to have disappeared so hopefully he will not mind if I steal his thunder!

The following are excerpts from CAL's book and all fully referenced:

Police

The official police account of how Jeremy Bamber killed his family is contained in the report to the Director of Public Prosecutions in November 1985, written with a view to having him committed for trial.

Acknowledging that the order of death could not be determined with certainty, the report contends that:

...there were probably ten shots fired in the first fusillade [four into Nevill, one into Sheila and five into June] and the remaining three - two into June's head, one into Sheila's head- were inflicted after Ralph Nevill was killed in the kitchen.  Eight shots were fired into the boys - eight cases were recovered in their bedroom.  Four shots were fired into Ralph Nevill in the kitchen - namely, the two in his temple area and the two in the top of his head.  Three cartridge cases were recovered in the kitchen.  It is therefore reasonable to assume that the fourth cartridge case was carried on the feet of the killer, or possibly a police officer, and deposited on the stairway.

Thanks for starting the thread Holly. In my opinion it should be by default the master thread. Until one of your guilters can explain exactly what happened, and this will be a scenario that operates on a higher plane than the EP/CAL nexus, the Eatons and Boutflours should be on notice to pack up and leave town.

[adam]

Thanks for starting the thread Holly. In my opinion it should be by default the master thread. Until one of your guilters can explain exactly what happened, and this will be a scenario that operates on a higher plane than the EP/CAL nexus, the Eatons and Boutflours should be on notice to pack up and leave town.

I gave you the link to my how Bamber committed the massacre thread. Twice. But you did not comment on it.

[Holly Goodhead]

I don't agree with that. Bamber testified Sheila had 'limited' knowledge of guns. Probably 'limited' because he couldn't say 'no'.

JB would need to expand on "limited". 

It did form part of the prosecution case against JB unlike much that is discussed on the forums:

b) Save for the appellant nobody had seen her use a gun and she had no interest in them. Sheila Caffell also had very poor co-ordination and would not have been capable of loading and operating the rifle nor would she have had the required knowledge to do so;

Jurors were allowed to handle the rifle and magazine and I think load bullets, dummies I assume. 

Personally I think its a perception thing in the UK.  Most don't have access to firearms so its seen as alien and certainly not something a city dwelling attractive slim woman would ever handle!  Case related debates from the US have a different take on this aspect of the case.

Surely it would be possible to take a bunch of novices allow them to observe an experienced handler load the mag, attach it and chamber a round to see how many times on average they need to observe before the task could be successfully completed.  If most were able to master the task after observing a couple of times then I think we could safely assume it was straightforward.   

[Holly Goodhead]

Thanks for starting the thread Holly. In my opinion it should be by default the master thread. Until one of your guilters can explain exactly what happened, and this will be a scenario that operates on a higher plane than the EP/CAL nexus, the Eatons and Boutflours should be on notice to pack up and leave town.

You're welcome. 

It does seem to be an aspect of the case hitherto overlooked.  At trial the so-called ballistics expert Malcolm Fletcher is asked about some of the casings but not others - asked in terms of location and what it might mean.  DC Hammersley, SOC Officer, is asked about every casing he seized aided by SOC photos but he obviously wasn't qualified to comment further.  Ed Lawson QC for the defence asked MF if anyone was shot outside the bedroom - he answered No!  See attached below.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/law-obituaries/5309767/Edmund-Lawson-QC.html

All the evidence points to NB being shot on the landing and stairs but as puglove has pointed out it doesn't conclusively make JB innocent.  It could be argued NB heard noises and went to investigate.  Meanwhile JB enters the master bedroom from the box room and then shoots NB on the landing/stairs?  It doesn't sound as plausible as SC imo but it is possible?   

I haven't seen David's images.  Are they based on NB's facial gsw's sustained on the landing stairs facing the master bedroom or coming up the stairs?  If the latter I can't really see how this would work.  SC was 5'7.5" and NB 6'4".  The difference in height is about the height of an average stair.  The length of the rifle is 43" which would need to be between perp and NB putting NB about 4 or 5 stairs away and making the trajectories greater than 20 degrees below the horizontal.  This assumes the perp held the rifle around the shoulder.  The trajectory might work if held at waist level but then I would question whether the casings would pass over the handrail.  It might mean they would need to pass through the spindles - would 4/4 pass through the spindles?  I can't see how any of this can be advanced without scaled drawings of WHF and some sort of digitial image of the autopsy photos and JB to ascertain dimensions along with firing dummy bullets inside WHF to check the location of casings.   

The only exception to the above might be if the perp was stood on one of the winder stairs as the depth might take care of the length of the rifle and fit with the trajectories but again I can't see how the casings would end up just inside the bedroom door?

[Myster]

Thanks for starting the thread Holly. In my opinion it should be by default the master thread. Until one of your guilters can explain exactly what happened, and this will be a scenario that operates on a higher plane than the EP/CAL nexus, the Eatons and Boutflours should be on notice to pack up and leave town.

The Eatons and Boutflours wouldn't give a flying fcuk what you think!