Scene Of Crime Reconstruction

[John]

I've no real idea what goes into such a prog. 

John going back to how we got onto this I think you said blood welled up in SC's mouth and upon removal to the morgue it was expelled as per the image above?  This would mean SC wasn't moved substantially post gsw's by either JB or raid team?

The only movement that I can see was that her head was lifted up thus the mirror image gsw's on her neck.

Sheila may have been rendered unconscious from the two wounds but not actually expired for several hours.

[Holly Goodhead]

If so, I'd like to know which documentary to make sure?

You've put a lot of work into those 3D images... I know how time-consuming and frustrating they can be to get right!

I think the cases could have rebounded off the wall to land as indicated by your dashed white line, or dropped straight down as Holly said. There's no way of knowing exactly where they'd finish up.

The problem is that the female model could be replaced by Jeremy Bamber. Two bullets fired into Nevill's jaw while he was in bed, then a hurried dash to the door and stairs, forcing his way past the perp who followed up with the other two shots to his shoulder and elbow from the position in your picture...

The images might be time-consuming and frustrating but so was all the effort that went into my diagram from 2015 which it appears David has 'copied'!

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6883.msg293857#msg293857

It appears there are many factors affecting the final location including ricochet but I can't see how they would be capable of ricocheting to the degree David has suggested.  @ about 4.40 in 'Farm Girl' lets off 3 shots with the 3rd hitting the trunk and landing about a foot away?  The bullets used are .223.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdAI9j_lDbc

I agree the model could be replaced by JB but the idea NB was shot in the bedroom just doesn't stack up imo.  I pointed out a long while ago JB could have entered via the box room with NB already out of the master bedroom perhaps investigating noises.

[John]

The images might be time-consuming and frustrating but so was all the effort that went into my diagram from 2015 which it appears David has 'copied'!

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6883.msg293857#msg293857

It appears there are many factors affecting the final location including ricochet but I can't see how they would be capable of ricocheting to the degree David has suggested.  @ about 4.40 in 'Farm Girl' lets off 3 shots with the 3rd hitting the trunk and landing about a foot away?  The bullets used are .223.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdAI9j_lDbc

I agree the model could be replaced by JB but the idea NB was shot in the bedroom just doesn't stack up imo.  I pointed out a long while ago JB could have entered via the box room with NB already out of the master bedroom perhaps investigating noises.

Both Nevill and June were shot initially in the master bedroom, June being shot where she lay in bed and Nevill as he attempted to approach the gunman.  The forensics bear this out Holly.  The blood and bullets/casings on the bed, June's final position slumped between her bed and the bedroom door and the position where the remaining empty casings fell.  No other scenario fits with the facts.

[david1819]

You've put a lot of work into those 3D images... I know how time-consuming and frustrating they can be to get right!

Thanks.

Makes a change from all those gifs. don't you think?

The problem is that the female model could be replaced by Jeremy Bamber. Two bullets fired into Nevill's jaw while he was in bed, then a hurried dash to the door and stairs, forcing his way past the perp who followed up with the other two shots to his shoulder and elbow from the position in your picture...

That becomes problematic when you bring June into the equation. I will demonstrate later with more uploads.

[Holly Goodhead]

Both Nevill and June were shot initially in the master bedroom, June being shot where she lay in bed and Nevill as he attempted to approach the gunman.  The forensics bear this out Holly.  The blood and bullets/casings on the bed, June's final position slumped between her bed and the bedroom door and the position of the remaining empty casings fell.  No other scenario fits with the facts.

John on what basis do you think NB sustained his lip, jaw, shoulder and elbow/chest gsw in the master bedroom?

The only expert to actually visit WHF was Dr Vanezis.  He said he was not aware of the position of cartridges or where NB had been shot.  He said his visit on 08.08.85 was an 'of interest' cursory search. 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=206.0;attach=742

In the absence of appropriate experts examining the soc as a multi-disciplinary team: pathologist, ballistics and blood pattern analyst then surely it is open to interpretation?

[Holly Goodhead]

Thanks.

Makes a change from all those gifs. don't you think?

That becomes problematic when you bring June into the equation. I will demonstrate later with more uploads.

I don't see how you can eliminate JB?  JB enters twins room and shoots each at least once carrying ammo on his person to reload.  He enters the master bedroom via the box room with 9 or 10 rounds in the mag.  Meanwhile NB hears a noise and has left the master bedroom to investigate.  JB realising NB has gone panics and fires off either 5 or 6 rounds at June which all hit her body.  NB then appears on the landing stairs and JB fires out from the bedroom (lip and jaw).  NB turns and retreats downstairs.  JB follows and inflicts the shoulder and elbow/chest gsw's whilst NB is on the main stairs.  Imo this doesn't sound very plausible as why would JB unleash a volley of bullets at June and not be on the hunt for NB but it's not impossible.  Imo all it can ever do with input from experts is show NB sustained his upstairs gsw's on the landing stairs and/or main stairs.  This lends support to JB's claims that NB had recently called him [from the kitchen] since he was approaching the master bedroom from the landing and sustained his facial gsw's facing into the bedroom.

[John]

John on what basis do you think NB sustained his lip, jaw, shoulder and elbow/chest gsw in the master bedroom?

The only expert to actually visit WHF was Dr Vanezis.  He said he was not aware of the position of cartridges or where NB had been shot.  He said his visit on 08.08.85 was an 'of interest' cursory search. 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=206.0;attach=742

In the absence of appropriate experts examining the soc as a multi-disciplinary team: pathologist, ballistics and blood pattern analyst then surely it is open to interpretation?

First off we can discount the three shots to the top of the head which were fatal and almost certainly occurred in the kitchen.  I think we can discount him being fatally wounded elsewhere and carried into the kitchen.

That leaves the remaining five shots, the casings from which were found mostly in the master bedroom with one being found on the main .staircase. One doesn't require to be called Sherlock to see that those five shots were delivered first and foremost and mainly in the master bedroom. Certainly there might have been some empty shells trodden on by police and moved but the overall picture is very clear.

Unless there was a conspiracy of mammoth proportion which I seriously doubt, the position of the bullets and empty casings must be taken to be true and accurate thus interpretation is not difficult. Crimescenes are like Rembrandt paintings, the context is not immediately discernible but after a while all becomes clear.

[Myster]

Four in the kitchen and four upstairs, John. 

[david1819]

I don't see how you can eliminate JB?  JB enters twins room and shoots each at least once carrying ammo on his person to reload.  He enters the master bedroom via the box room with 9 or 10 rounds in the mag.  Meanwhile NB hears a noise and has left the master bedroom to investigate.  JB realising NB has gone panics and fires off either 5 or 6 rounds at June which all hit her body.  NB then appears on the landing stairs and JB fires out from the bedroom (lip and jaw).  NB turns and retreats downstairs.  JB follows and inflicts the shoulder and elbow/chest gsw's whilst NB is on the main stairs. Imo this doesn't sound very plausible

I agree. Neither are the other alternate senario's very plausible. Neville falling asleep downstairs or the perpetrator standing on the bed. But the aim is to establish what happened not just eliminate JB.

[steve_trousers]

I agree. Neither are the other alternate senario's very plausible. Neville falling asleep downstairs or the perpetrator standing on the bed. But the aim is to establish what happened not just eliminate JB.

That is not possible unless Jeremy one day confesses, which cannot be ruled out.

For example how can we ever know in what order the family were shot, even though it makes most sense to go to the master bedroom first and open fire, we will never know for sure.

What we do know for sure about the crime scene, is that the perpetrator could not possibly be Sheila.

[Holly Goodhead]

First off we can discount the three shots to the top of the head which were fatal and almost certainly occurred in the kitchen.  I think we can discount him being fatally wounded elsewhere and carried into the kitchen.

That leaves the remaining five shots, the casings from which were found mostly in the master bedroom with one being found on the main .staircase. One doesn't require to be called Sherlock to see that those five shots were delivered first and foremost and mainly in the master bedroom. Certainly there might have been some empty shells trodden on by police and moved but the overall picture is very clear.

Unless there was a conspiracy of mammoth proportion which I seriously doubt, the position of the bullets and empty casings must be taken to be true and accurate thus interpretation is not difficult. Crimescenes are like Rembrandt paintings, the context is not immediately discernible but after a while all becomes clear.

I don't see a mammoth conspiracy.  I see an incompetent and negligent defence.

I prefer the analogy of a jigsaw where a few pieces are missing and a few forced into the wrong position! 

[Holly Goodhead]

I agree. Neither are the other alternate senario's very plausible. Neville falling asleep downstairs or the perpetrator standing on the bed. But the aim is to establish what happened not just eliminate JB.

But even if world experts assessed the soc on 7th Aug there are aspects that can never be known to anyone other than those who are no longer with us.  All we can ever hope to prove in this regard is that NB sustained his upstairs gsw's on the landing stairs/main stairs which in turns lends support to JB's claim of a call from JB. 

[Holly Goodhead]

That is not possible unless Jeremy one day confesses, which cannot be ruled out.

For example how can we ever know in what order the family were shot, even though it makes most sense to go to the master bedroom first and open fire, we will never know for sure.

What we do know for sure about the crime scene, is that the perpetrator could not possibly be Sheila.

If this was true the CCRC would not have referred the case to the COA based on the blood flake and silencer.

[steve_trousers]

If this was true the CCRC would not have referred the case to the COA based on the blood flake and silencer.

Yes and we know what happened next, the court of appeal threw each and every point out in a damning verdict.

[david1819]

But even if world experts assessed the soc on 7th Aug there are aspects that can never be known to anyone other than those who are no longer with us.  All we can ever hope to prove in this regard is that NB sustained his upstairs gsw's on the landing stairs/main stairs which in turns lends support to JB's claim of a call from JB.

Indeed, But we have to make the most of what we have left and available to us.