Author Topic: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction  (Read 74793 times)

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Offline Myster

Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #225 on: May 13, 2017, 04:55:10 PM »
We shouldn't expect anything less from blue.  Tesko has them all brainwashed by now!

With exception of our dear beloved APRIL, Caroline and Adam, don't forget.
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline John

Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #226 on: May 13, 2017, 06:33:14 PM »
With exception of our dear beloved APRIL, Caroline and Adam, don't forget.

Most certainly  8((()*/
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

david1819

  • Guest
Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #227 on: May 13, 2017, 07:02:10 PM »
David have you thought any more about June's position when she sustained the two gsw's to her head?  There's no need for me to keep reposting the graphic image we are all familiar with.  I have lined up the rifle against the door, ie barrel over June and pointing out onto the landing, and then rotated it around based on the wound tracks and I can only get the casings on the landing?  I'm sorry but your casing ricochet just doesn't work as there's no evidence they have the sort of velocity required to travel the distance.  The 'Farm Girl' vid shows the sort of ricochet involved.  Although the casings are significantly larger they are heavier too with the inevitable drag so the net effect should be about the same.  They only require enough energy to eject them quickly enough to cycle a new round. 

Given June was incapable of voluntary movement after sustaining either gsw to the head I'm struggling with any involuntary movement and casings.  If she was sat up against the door when shot the the flight of the casings would be impeded by the door and they would ricochet back and land around her hand near her waist?  I can accept 1 could do somthing very random but not two.  Research shows for a variety of reasons 25% go astray so at least one should be where anticipated based on the ejection pattern.  This is borne out by the casings that pertain to SC unless she was moved significantly.

Shell casings bounce/ricochet. Its document in forensic literature. That farm girl video involves a much higher caliber weapon and shell casings will weight allot more thus they wont be going far.


"Figure 12.6 shows the somewhat common example of paint adhering to the mouth of a
cartridge casing fired, extracted, and ejected from a gun that was in close proximity to a wall
inside a house. While the positioning of the gun is approximate at best, this conclusion may
be critical to a shooting reconstruction.
In many cases, the crux of a dispute may be differing witness statements about whether
the shooter and gun were in a confined, indoor painted entranceway or just outside the door
on an open patio. The casing itself may have bounced outside, but this type of transfer could
have been accomplished only in association with the force of ejection. Merely tossing the casing
against the wall would not have allowed Locard’s Exchange Principle to take effect."
Michael G. Haag, Lucien C. Haag Shooting Incident Reconstruction, Second Edition



"Test firing and cartridge case location analysis showed that what actually must have
happened is that four shots were fired from the officer’s original position and the remaining
three shots were fired from the opposite side of the vehicle. The fired cartridge cases from
the second position undoubtedly landed on the rooftop of the vehicle and then bounced off
onto the street in the same area as the cartridge cases from the first position."
Practical Analysis and Reconstruction of Shooting Incidents Edward E. Hueske


"However, other reconstructionists understanding the effects of weapon manipulation,
shooter movement, bounce factors, and other elements, began to list and accommodate for some
of them. For example, Edward Hueske has said that reconstruction of an equivalent shooting
environment should take into account the following eight variables: weapon design, weapon condition,
ammunition type, position weapon was held when fired, movement of weapon during firing, how tightly the
weapon was held during firing, type of terrain where shooting occurred, and the presence of
obstacles."
FIRED CARTRIDGE CASE EJECTION PATTERNS FROM SEMI-AUTOMATIC FIREARMS
Force Science Institute and Minnesota State University, Mankato, MN, USA.





Offline APRIL

Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #228 on: May 13, 2017, 07:25:04 PM »
With exception of our dear beloved APRIL, Caroline and Adam, don't forget.


Awww! xxxx



Offline adam

Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #229 on: May 13, 2017, 07:27:16 PM »
Wishful thinking and an absolute load of twaddle as usual.

Unfortunately there is no source regarding Ainsley being brought in to hide evidence.

Roch said it's "not his job to speculate why", Ainsley was brought in & agreed to hide evidence which showed Sheila was the killer.

Guess he shouldn't have mentioned it in the first place then. 
« Last Edit: May 14, 2017, 10:07:31 AM by adam »

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #230 on: May 14, 2017, 01:09:04 PM »
Shell casings bounce/ricochet. Its document in forensic literature. That farm girl video involves a much higher caliber weapon and shell casings will weight allot more thus they wont be going far.


"Figure 12.6 shows the somewhat common example of paint adhering to the mouth of a
cartridge casing fired, extracted, and ejected from a gun that was in close proximity to a wall
inside a house. While the positioning of the gun is approximate at best, this conclusion may
be critical to a shooting reconstruction.
In many cases, the crux of a dispute may be differing witness statements about whether
the shooter and gun were in a confined, indoor painted entranceway or just outside the door
on an open patio. The casing itself may have bounced outside, but this type of transfer could
have been accomplished only in association with the force of ejection. Merely tossing the casing
against the wall would not have allowed Locard’s Exchange Principle to take effect."
Michael G. Haag, Lucien C. Haag Shooting Incident Reconstruction, Second Edition



"Test firing and cartridge case location analysis showed that what actually must have
happened is that four shots were fired from the officer’s original position and the remaining
three shots were fired from the opposite side of the vehicle. The fired cartridge cases from
the second position undoubtedly landed on the rooftop of the vehicle and then bounced off
onto the street in the same area as the cartridge cases from the first position."
Practical Analysis and Reconstruction of Shooting Incidents Edward E. Hueske


"However, other reconstructionists understanding the effects of weapon manipulation,
shooter movement, bounce factors, and other elements, began to list and accommodate for some
of them. For example, Edward Hueske has said that reconstruction of an equivalent shooting
environment should take into account the following eight variables: weapon design, weapon condition,
ammunition type, position weapon was held when fired, movement of weapon during firing, how tightly the
weapon was held during firing, type of terrain where shooting occurred, and the presence of
obstacles."
FIRED CARTRIDGE CASE EJECTION PATTERNS FROM SEMI-AUTOMATIC FIREARMS
Force Science Institute and Minnesota State University, Mankato, MN, USA.


I appreciate if an object impedes the flight of an ejected casing it has the potential to cause the casing
to ricochet off the object and alter the normal casing ejection pattern.  But I don't believe the poetntial for ricochet is as great as that depicted in your diagram.  MF's estimate of 4' max is based on an unimpeded flight.  Your diagram has the ejected casing travelling a few inches based on the normal pattern then ricocheting against the wall and travelling a further 3' to 4' in the opposite direction.  I think you will find hitting the wall will remove all the energy and any ricochet will amount to a few inches max?

The rifle in the 'Farm Girl' vid, Bushmaster, uses .223.  The Anshutz .22.  The ejection mechanism on the Bushmaster will need to deliver more force to eject the casing due to the size and weight of the .223.  However any energy remaining for free flight will be similar due to the difference in weight?  The ejction mechanism will  deliever proportionate force to eject the casing and any remaining energy for free flight will surely be similar? 

The casings eject upwards, forwards and to the right.  If we consider June's found position with the top of her head in a Northerly direction.  Based on the wound tracks of the gsw's to her head the casings would be expected in a NE postion on the landing with nothing to impede the flight.  DRH/3 and 4 are in an Easterly postion?

Its a pity we can't see how the casings land in this vid but we can see they definitely travel in a Northerly direction not Easterly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgz0lqGVouo 

If June came face-to-face with the perp ie June facing out onto the landing and the perp facing into the bedroom with June sustaining the gsw's to her head in this position what would happen to her body in terms of involuntary movement and possibly falling against a moving object ie the door?  Bearing in mind also MF estimated the gsw above the ear to have been fired when the rifle was more than a foot away and the gsw between the eyes less than a foot away.   
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Myster

Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #231 on: May 14, 2017, 02:27:38 PM »
If June had already collapsed on the floor by the door and the rifle was pointing downwards at her head to deliver the final two shots with the perp standing in the doorway/landing area, then the casings were probably cushioned on impact with the carpet and came to rest as DRH/13 and 14 as noted on the casing layout diagram - "June second episode".  I don't know why this still hasn't registered with you, Holly!

Two more Anschutz 520/525 videos, neither of which are much use in estimating exactly where or what distance the casings eject to. You can try to reduce the speed to .25x by clicking on the gear icon, but for me it made no difference. The 520 is almost identical to the 525, just a slightly earlier version, I think.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtardPylgL8

Parli Italiano, Holly Goodheadio?...

https://youtu.be/XMZFRt0eEyw?t=24m54s
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #232 on: May 14, 2017, 02:50:47 PM »
If June had already collapsed on the floor by the door and the rifle was pointing downwards at her head to deliver the final two shots with the perp standing in the doorway/landing area, then the casings were probably cushioned on impact with the carpet and came to rest as DRH/13 and 14 as noted on the casing layout diagram - "June second episode".  I don't know why this still hasn't registered with you, Holly!

Two more Anschutz 520/525 videos, neither of which are much use in estimating exactly where or what distance the casings eject to. You can try to reduce the speed to .25x by clicking on the gear icon, but for me it made no difference. The 520 is almost identical to the 525, just a slightly earlier version, I think.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtardPylgL8

Parli Italiano, Holly Goodheadio?...

https://youtu.be/XMZFRt0eEyw?t=24m54s

Thanks but I can't even see them eject.  I guess due to the fact they are so small and fast. 

Casings eject forwards, upwards and to the right.  DRH/13 is only slightly above June's head so no I don't see this at all.  DRH/14 would need to take a sharp left turn.  If it came to rest on carpet as it had run out of steam why would it then bounce down the stairs and come to rest against the skirting board?   

If you believe the casing layout diagram to be accurate and reliable then you surely must agree that DRH/5 pertains to a graze wound June sustained to her chest unrelated to any other wound?  How did DRH/5 end up in the found position?  This would also mean a total of 8 casings pertain to June: 7 entry gsw's and 1 graze gsw.  Which 4 casings do you think pertain to NB's upstairs gsw's? 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Myster

Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #233 on: May 14, 2017, 03:59:01 PM »
Thanks but I can't even see them eject.  I guess due to the fact they are so small and fast. 

Casings eject forwards, upwards and to the right.  DRH/13 is only slightly above June's head so no I don't see this at all.  DRH/14 would need to take a sharp left turn.  If it came to rest on carpet as it had run out of steam why would it then bounce down the stairs and come to rest against the skirting board?   

If you believe the casing layout diagram to be accurate and reliable then you surely must agree that DRH/5 pertains to a graze wound June sustained to her chest unrelated to any other wound?  How did DRH/5 end up in the found position?  This would also mean a total of 8 casings pertain to June: 7 entry gsw's and 1 graze gsw.  Which 4 casings do you think pertain to NB's upstairs gsw's?

Any of those on the floor within the bedroom. Even the police would have had difficulty working out which ones.

As noted before, the perp, June, Nevill or the TFG could have kicked DRH/3, 4 & 5 (and even 13 & 14) to where they were found.

I didn't say the casings would necessarily come to an absolute rest on hitting the carpet. They could have bounced/rolled a short distance depending on their speed and angle of impact.
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline John

Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #234 on: May 14, 2017, 04:57:29 PM »
One only has to glance at the casing distribution plan below to realise the initial shooting of both June and Nevill occurred in the master bedroom.


« Last Edit: May 14, 2017, 06:03:06 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #235 on: May 14, 2017, 05:37:42 PM »
Any of those on the floor within the bedroom. Even the police would have had difficulty working out which ones.

As noted before, the perp, June, Nevill or the TFG could have kicked DRH/3, 4 & 5 (and even 13 & 14) to where they were found.

I didn't say the casings would necessarily come to an absolute rest on hitting the carpet. They could have bounced/rolled a short distance depending on their speed and angle of impact.

Well if you believe the casing layout diagram is accurate then it must mean June sustained 6 gsw's whilst she was in bed and getting out of (5 entry wounds and 1 graze wound).  On this basis it seems reasonable to assume 6 of the casings forming a cluster of 8 June's side of the bed pertain to June's gsw's to her body.  This would mean 2 of the remaining 8 pertain to NB's gsw's along with DRH/3 and /4.  The problem is this doesn't fit with the trajectories.  If DRH/3 and /4 pertain to NB's gsw's to his shoulder and elbow/chest as he fled the bedroom how can the trajectories be explained?  Dr Vanezis' trial testimony said these were fired from above.   

I know I'm probably boring others senseless rambling on about this but it is important!  I appreciate you and some others have tried to make sense of it along with myself.  But imo it is one of the most important aspects of the case and yet many think you can just gloss over it or fill the void with complete shite.  I've posted scenarios at the start of this thread from CAL, Dr Vanezis, MF, DPP and  JB.  They are all either incomplete eg Dr Vanezis saying he thought the twins were shot first.  And.......................... Or completely barking eg JB saying NB wasn't shot upstairs at all and soc officer DC Hammersley wasn't even at soc!  In terms of CAL it's interesting how someone can write well and yet lack the awareness and skills to make any sense of the soc whatsoever.   

Most just seem to think you can say JB or SC burst into their parents bedroom and shot them in bed!  This can be evidenced by Michael Turner QC arguing the police inadvertently removed blood from the phone by dialling out.  I've just flicked through Lomax and Harrison and they don't fare any better.  Harrison's claims of an annoymous letter detailing the soc makes no sense at all. 

See how many times the experts refer to the word trajectory in the JFK reconstruction and yet in the WHF case most seem to think the trajectories pertaining to NB's upstairs gsw's are something that can either be ignored or brushed aside:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5JDhi4URds

Why does Dr Vanezis refer to the trajectories in his autopsy report, his further report dated 16th May 1986 and his trial testimony?  Why bother with this info if it doesn't mean something?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2017, 05:40:11 PM by Holly Goodhead »
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline John

Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #236 on: May 14, 2017, 05:56:03 PM »
It is impossible to work out trajectories Holly as we are talking about a moving target. Nevill could have been kneeling down or have fallen or in any one of a dozen other positions when shot, only the killer knows.

The only thing we know for sure is that the majority of the casings lie within the bedroom and to get there the shooter had to be either in the bedroom or standing just outside firing in.  Had the shooter been in the bedroom firing out the casings would not have fallen where they did.

DRH13 and DRH14 are shown as Second Episode shots (June) fired from the doorway.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2017, 12:52:14 AM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #237 on: May 14, 2017, 06:30:15 PM »
It is impossible to work out trajectories Holly as we are talking about a moving target. Nevill could have been kneeling down or have fallen or in any one of a dozen other positions when shot, only the killer knows.

The only thing we know for sure is that the majority of the casings lie within the bedroom and to get there the shooter had to be either in the bedroom or standing just outside firing in.  Had the shooter been in the bedroom firing out the casings would not have fallen where they did.

DRH13 and DRH14 are shown as Second Episode shots (June) fired from the doorway.

If NB fell or knelt as he fled the bedroom with the perp behind then why didn't the "violent struggle" take place there and then when NB was in a very vulnerable position?   At this point NB had sustained 2 gsw's to his face, 1 gsw to his shoulder and another to his elbow/chest. 

How can the trajectories to NB's lip and jaw be accounted for ie 20 degrees below the horizontal?  These wounds were inflicted when the barrel was inches from NB's skin.  Please consider the dimesnions of the bed and the length of the barrel.   

Some use the phrase 'thinking out of the box'.  Here we can think out of the box and out of the bedroom  8)-)))  I think most will agree the master bedroom door was wide open.  Therefore it is possible that the perp fired out of the bedroom onto the landing and casings DRH/3 and/4 pertain to these shots.  It is also possible the perp fired shots on the landing and casings DRH/13 and /14 pertain to these shots.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

david1819

  • Guest
Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #238 on: May 14, 2017, 11:21:03 PM »
I appreciate if an object impedes the flight of an ejected casing it has the potential to cause the casing
to ricochet off the object and alter the normal casing ejection pattern.  But I don't believe the poetntial for ricochet is as great as that depicted in your diagram.  MF's estimate of 4' max is based on an unimpeded flight.  Your diagram has the ejected casing travelling a few inches based on the normal pattern then ricocheting against the wall and travelling a further 3' to 4' in the opposite direction.  I think you will find hitting the wall will remove all the energy and any ricochet will amount to a few inches max?

The rifle in the 'Farm Girl' vid, Bushmaster, uses .223.  The Anshutz .22.  The ejection mechanism on the Bushmaster will need to deliver more force to eject the casing due to the size and weight of the .223.  However any energy remaining for free flight will be similar due to the difference in weight?  The ejction mechanism will  deliever proportionate force to eject the casing and any remaining energy for free flight will surely be similar? 

The casings eject upwards, forwards and to the right.  If we consider June's found position with the top of her head in a Northerly direction.  Based on the wound tracks of the gsw's to her head the casings would be expected in a NE postion on the landing with nothing to impede the flight.  DRH/3 and 4 are in an Easterly postion?

Its a pity we can't see how the casings land in this vid but we can see they definitely travel in a Northerly direction not Easterly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgz0lqGVouo 

If June came face-to-face with the perp ie June facing out onto the landing and the perp facing into the bedroom with June sustaining the gsw's to her head in this position what would happen to her body in terms of involuntary movement and possibly falling against a moving object ie the door?  Bearing in mind also MF estimated the gsw above the ear to have been fired when the rifle was more than a foot away and the gsw between the eyes less than a foot away.

There is no use comparing a .223 to a .22lr. Different gun, different ammo and different extractor. Plus the tree is far away.



I have managed to create an animation in my reconstruction. The link is below. What is good about this is the software actually uses a physics engine. So its fairly realistic.

https://expirebox.com/download/810f54db1bd496d0a073494610263da0.html

Offline puglove

Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #239 on: May 15, 2017, 12:02:59 AM »
Roch says Ainsley was brought in to hide that evidence.

Oh, right!! It's all sorted then!!

Any day now, Bamber will be released. Because of Roch's.....thing.

I'm feeling a bit of a Colin Fry thing here. It's sort of small, green, looks like a sprout.
A mushy sprout.

 @)(++(* @)(++(*
Jeremy Bamber kicked Mike Tesko in the fanny.