Author Topic: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction  (Read 74848 times)

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Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #255 on: May 16, 2017, 06:49:15 PM »
I don't really understand why many who believe JB guilty are keen to preserve the idea NB was shot in the bedroom.  As puglove has pointed out even if NB was shot on the stairs it wouldn't make JB innocent.  At best all it can do is lend support to NB phoning JB.

I've just copied Hartley's reconstruction from Blue:

The killer enters the bedroom, stands at the foot of the bed and starts shooting, shell casings are ejected to the right.
June is shot a number of times, she sits forward and collapses out of bed on her side.
Neville is shot a number of times but manages to run past the killer out of the room and down the stairs. The killer pursues and after a struggle in the kitchen Neville receives the 4 fatal shots.
The killer returns to the bedroom where June has managed to move around a little and shoots her an additional two times whilst standing in the doorway, the cases eject to the right.


The ballistics evidence show NB's lip and jaw gsw's were inflicted when the barrel was inches from NB's skin.  To err on the side of caution I will go for 11 inches.  NB was 6'4" tall.  A standard bed is 6'3" in length and a King and Queen 6'6" so I'll assme the later.  That's 78".  The length of the rifle is 43". 

Length of bed = 78"
Length of rifle = 43"
Distance of shot = 11" approx max

Deduct the length of rifle and distance of shot from the length of the bed leaves 25" meaning the perp would need to hang over the end of the bed to inflict the gsw's to NB's face and lip.  How would NB then get out of bed and get past the perp to sustain the gsw's to the rear of his shoulder and elbow/chest.


June was shot 6 x's whilst in bed or getting out of.  She was then able to get out of bed and walk around it as far as the blue socks and bible on the floor as per bloodstaning to carpet and back again to her found location.  A total of 8 casings were found June's side of the bed.  It seems clear 6 pertain to June's gsw's: 5 entered her body and 1 graze only wound.  Even if I consider the other 2 pertain to NB (lip and jaw) how did NB get out of bed with the perp hanging over the end of it and the barrel within inches of NB's skin?  Even if I consider this happened at what point did NB sustain his gsw's to his shoulder and elbow/chest?  Where are the casings for these gsw's if the casings by the door pertain to June's head gsw's?  If the casing on the transition strip and the casing on the landing pertain to these wounds how can the downward trajectories be accounted for?  The pathologist said the gsw's to NB's shoulder were inflicted from above.  Ballistics estimated the distance of these shots at 2 feet away.

If NB sustained his upstairs gsw's in the bedroom at what point did he turn?  2 x face.  1 x back of shoulder. 1 x elbow/chest?  Why was none of NB's blood found on carpets or bedding within the bedroom or landing?  A blood trail started on the stairs as evidenced by AE's WS and DCI Jones' notebook.

If June sustained the gsw's to her head in the found position where are the casings?  I'm struggling to reconcile the location of any of the casings in their found location, as per soc photos, with June's gsw's.

Hartley's scenario makes no sense to me.  It's not easy fitting all the bits together.  I remain stumped on accounting for the casings to June's gsw's to the head assuming these were inflicted in the found position.  (Sorry David don't buy into to your ricochet here there and everywhere theory).  We know the pathological evidence shows either of these gsw's rendered June incapable of voluntary movement thereafter so any movement would need to be involuntary but I can't see any position June may have fallen into that accounts for the 8 casings her side of the bed to pertain to all her gsw's.  If she was sat against the door and slid down to the found position this would not account for the casings her side of the bed.  I know casings can be kicked around etc but the casings June's side of the bed are well preserved due to the door and duvet on the floor.

I can only think June may have been stood or sat around the corner of the bed facing out onto the landing and the perp inflicted the head gsw's in this position.  June then fell against the door and her body twisted 180 degrees but this seems as unlikely as David's ricochet theory.     

Will have to take myself off into a darkened room and think about this..............

Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #256 on: May 16, 2017, 07:03:31 PM »
Well, considering my "rudimentary' IT skills" and the ostensible idea that everything I have is stolen. I didn't think id have anything interesting to post really.




David consider the distance of the shots June sustained to her body and the location of casings that pertain to these wounds.  Then consider the distance of shots June sustained to her head and the location of casings that pertain to these wounds.

Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline adam

Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #257 on: May 16, 2017, 07:42:15 PM »
I don't really understand why many who believe JB guilty are keen to preserve the idea NB was shot in the bedroom.  As puglove has pointed out even if NB was shot on the stairs it wouldn't make JB innocent.  At best all it can do is lend support to NB phoning JB.

I've just copied Hartley's reconstruction from Blue:

The killer enters the bedroom, stands at the foot of the bed and starts shooting, shell casings are ejected to the right.
June is shot a number of times, she sits forward and collapses out of bed on her side.
Neville is shot a number of times but manages to run past the killer out of the room and down the stairs. The killer pursues and after a struggle in the kitchen Neville receives the 4 fatal shots.
The killer returns to the bedroom where June has managed to move around a little and shoots her an additional two times whilst standing in the doorway, the cases eject to the right.


The ballistics evidence show NB's lip and jaw gsw's were inflicted when the barrel was inches from NB's skin.  To err on the side of caution I will go for 11 inches.  NB was 6'4" tall.  A standard bed is 6'3" in length and a King and Queen 6'6" so I'll assme the later.  That's 78".  The length of the rifle is 43". 

Length of bed = 78"
Length of rifle = 43"
Distance of shot = 11" approx max

Deduct the length of rifle and distance of shot from the length of the bed leaves 25" meaning the perp would need to hang over the end of the bed to inflict the gsw's to NB's face and lip.  How would NB then get out of bed and get past the perp to sustain the gsw's to the rear of his shoulder and elbow/chest.


June was shot 6 x's whilst in bed or getting out of.  She was then able to get out of bed and walk around it as far as the blue socks and bible on the floor as per bloodstaning to carpet and back again to her found location.  A total of 8 casings were found June's side of the bed.  It seems clear 6 pertain to June's gsw's: 5 entered her body and 1 graze only wound.  Even if I consider the other 2 pertain to NB (lip and jaw) how did NB get out of bed with the perp hanging over the end of it and the barrel within inches of NB's skin?  Even if I consider this happened at what point did NB sustain his gsw's to his shoulder and elbow/chest?  Where are the casings for these gsw's if the casings by the door pertain to June's head gsw's?  If the casing on the transition strip and the casing on the landing pertain to these wounds how can the downward trajectories be accounted for?  The pathologist said the gsw's to NB's shoulder were inflicted from above.  Ballistics estimated the distance of these shots at 2 feet away.

If NB sustained his upstairs gsw's in the bedroom at what point did he turn?  2 x face.  1 x back of shoulder. 1 x elbow/chest?  Why was none of NB's blood found on carpets or bedding within the bedroom or landing?  A blood trail started on the stairs as evidenced by AE's WS and DCI Jones' notebook.

If June sustained the gsw's to her head in the found position where are the casings?  I'm struggling to reconcile the location of any of the casings in their found location, as per soc photos, with June's gsw's.

Hartley's scenario makes no sense to me.  It's not easy fitting all the bits together.  I remain stumped on accounting for the casings to June's gsw's to the head assuming these were inflicted in the found position.  (Sorry David don't buy into to your ricochet here there and everywhere theory).  We know the pathological evidence shows either of these gsw's rendered June incapable of voluntary movement thereafter so any movement would need to be involuntary but I can't see any position June may have fallen into that accounts for the 8 casings her side of the bed to pertain to all her gsw's.  If she was sat against the door and slid down to the found position this would not account for the casings her side of the bed.  I know casings can be kicked around etc but the casings June's side of the bed are well preserved due to the door and duvet on the floor.

I can only think June may have been stood or sat around the corner of the bed facing out onto the landing and the perp inflicted the head gsw's in this position.  June then fell against the door and her body twisted 180 degrees but this seems as unlikely as David's ricochet theory.     

Will have to take myself off into a darkened room and think about this..............

People are just going by where the shell casings were.

Although David has recently said they go forward 6 feet, which made it even more certain Nevill was shot in the bedroom. David has since posted a diagram of the casings ejecting sideways. 

He's now saying the bullet casings bounced off walls, which contradicts his pictures of Sheila standing under an open door with not a wall in front of her for 10 feet. 

Offline Myster

Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #258 on: May 16, 2017, 09:35:23 PM »
I don't really understand why many who believe JB guilty are keen to preserve the idea NB was shot in the bedroom.  As puglove has pointed out even if NB was shot on the stairs it wouldn't make JB innocent.  At best all it can do is lend support to NB phoning JB.

I've just copied Hartley's reconstruction from Blue:

The killer enters the bedroom, stands at the foot of the bed and starts shooting, shell casings are ejected to the right.
June is shot a number of times, she sits forward and collapses out of bed on her side.
Neville is shot a number of times but manages to run past the killer out of the room and down the stairs. The killer pursues and after a struggle in the kitchen Neville receives the 4 fatal shots.
The killer returns to the bedroom where June has managed to move around a little and shoots her an additional two times whilst standing in the doorway, the cases eject to the right.


The ballistics evidence show NB's lip and jaw gsw's were inflicted when the barrel was inches from NB's skin.  To err on the side of caution I will go for 11 inches.  NB was 6'4" tall.  A standard bed is 6'3" in length and a King and Queen 6'6" so I'll assme the later.  That's 78".  The length of the rifle is 43". 

Length of bed = 78"
Length of rifle = 43"
Distance of shot = 11" approx max

Deduct the length of rifle and distance of shot from the length of the bed leaves 25" meaning the perp would need to hang over the end of the bed to inflict the gsw's to NB's face and lip.  How would NB then get out of bed and get past the perp to sustain the gsw's to the rear of his shoulder and elbow/chest.


Holly, just because the bed is 78" long doesn't mean that Nevill was lying flat with his head jammed up against the headboard... Geez!!! He was probably leaning forward about to get out of bed because he was aware that he was going to be shot. The rifle could have been held, not in the conventional way with butt end up against the assailant's shoulder, but with its body thrust forward and muzzle close to Nevill's face. No need therefore for any 11" gap.  It's so easy to imagine, I can't understand why you don't see that. You're too reliant on perfect precision and measurements which are way off the mark.

There was no blood on the bedding maybe because, unlike June, he was only shot twice and was quicker to get up and out of the room. But even if there was the odd spot or two, either forensics missed it or the police burned the relevant sheet(s) with the stains.

As for the two shoulder and arm wounds, if you insist that they occurred with the perp standing in the doorway, or on the landing, or on the winders, while Nevill was going downstairs, then you could easily substitute JB for SC with the same result.
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

david1819

  • Guest
Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #259 on: May 16, 2017, 10:41:29 PM »
Your reconstruction based on my reconstruction   8(0(*

I'm afraid it does not involve June deciding to pick up a book and go wandering around after her brains have been mashed to a pulp.



I haven't downloaded your link in case its a trick to spy on me and steal my intelligence  ?>)()<

 @)(++(*

I have turned it into a gif.



Here it is gifv format
http://imgur.com/CGCOvJs.gifv
« Last Edit: May 17, 2017, 03:13:54 PM by Holly Goodhead »

Offline sika

Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #260 on: May 16, 2017, 11:02:44 PM »
David, what's the latest with this "forensic breakthrough" of yours/Caroline's ?

Did it all turn out to be total horseshit? 

Offline adam

Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #261 on: May 17, 2017, 01:06:03 AM »
I'm afraid it does not involve June deciding to pick up a book and go wandering around after her brains have been mashed to a pulp.


 @)(++(*

I have turned it into a gif.



Here it is gifv format
http://imgur.com/CGCOvJs.gifv


64. In respect of the eight shots into Nevill Bamber's body, the six to his head and face were fired when the rifle was within a few inches of the skin. The remaining injuries to the arm were caused when the gun was at least two feet from the body.

So the casings do go sideways, not forwards. What were they made off rubber ?

Nevill would have to get to the bedroom door for two shots. As 6 of the shots were from inches away. I did say this on you're casing thread but got no response.

If Nevill went upstairs and got so close to Sheila, it's likely there would be a confrontation upstairs, rather than Nevill running straight back downstairs.

Everything points to June & Neville being shot in the bedroom in an 8 - 11 opening bullet salvo. 


« Last Edit: May 17, 2017, 01:13:03 AM by adam »

Offline adam

Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #262 on: May 17, 2017, 01:12:10 AM »
David, what's the latest with this "forensic breakthrough" of yours/Caroline's ?

Did it all turn out to be total horseshit?

Don't knock this. David had to travel 45 minutes to hand deliver this to Bamber's legal advisors, a year ago.

He didn't answer my question on whether he stopped for a coffee half way there.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #263 on: May 17, 2017, 08:26:49 AM »
Holly, just because the bed is 78" long doesn't mean that Nevill was lying flat with his head jammed up against the headboard... Geez!!! He was probably leaning forward about to get out of bed because he was aware that he was going to be shot. The rifle could have been held, not in the conventional way with butt end up against the assailant's shoulder, but with its body thrust forward and muzzle close to Nevill's face. No need therefore for any 11" gap.  It's so easy to imagine, I can't understand why you don't see that. You're too reliant on perfect precision and measurements which are way off the mark.

There was no blood on the bedding maybe because, unlike June, he was only shot twice and was quicker to get up and out of the room. But even if there was the odd spot or two, either forensics missed it or the police burned the relevant sheet(s) with the stains.

As for the two shoulder and arm wounds, if you insist that they occurred with the perp standing in the doorway, or on the landing, or on the winders, while Nevill was going downstairs, then you could easily substitute JB for SC with the same result.

11" is the approx distance of the shot not a gap.  MF estimated the distance of NB's facial shots at "within inches" of his skin.  Had I have used 6" it would mean the perp would need to hang over the bed further with or without rifle!  Anyway NB with his head on the pillow wouldn't work without the perp holding the rifle at a vertical drop over NB's face since the track of the wounds went from front to back. 

Ok so NB was sitting up either fully or partially putting his face around the middle of the bed 39".  I'll reduce the distance of shot to 6".  39" + 6" = 45".  Rifle = 43".  Still means perp would need to hang over the bed with or without rifle.  How did NB then manage to push past perp and sustain the GSW's to his shoulder and elbow/graze?  If you think the casings by the door pertain to June's GSW's to the head where are the casings for NB's shoulder and elbow/chest GSW's?   
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Caroline

Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #264 on: May 17, 2017, 10:50:33 AM »
11" is the approx distance of the shot not a gap.  MF estimated the distance of NB's facial shots at "within inches" of his skin.  Had I have used 6" it would mean the perp would need to hang over the bed further with or without rifle!  Anyway NB with his head on the pillow wouldn't work without the perp holding the rifle at a vertical drop over NB's face since the track of the wounds went from front to back. 

Ok so NB was sitting up either fully or partially putting his face around the middle of the bed 39".  I'll reduce the distance of shot to 6".  39" + 6" = 45".  Rifle = 43".  Still means perp would need to hang over the bed with or without rifle.  How did NB then manage to push past perp and sustain the GSW's to his shoulder and elbow/graze?  If you think the casings by the door pertain to June's GSW's to the head where are the casings for NB's shoulder and elbow/chest GSW's?   

All this can ever be is supposition.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #265 on: May 17, 2017, 11:04:22 AM »
People are just going by where the shell casings were.

Although David has recently said they go forward 6 feet, which made it even more certain Nevill was shot in the bedroom. David has since posted a diagram of the casings ejecting sideways. 

He's now saying the bullet casings bounced off walls, which contradicts his pictures of Sheila standing under an open door with not a wall in front of her for 10 feet.

David, where are you getting 6' from and sideways? 

You need to consider whether the collision (casing hitting wall) is an elastic or inelastic collision and I think the angle also affects the outcome. 

https://www.khanacademy.org/science/physics/linear-momentum/elastic-and-inelastic-collisions/v/elastic-and-inelastic-collisions
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #266 on: May 17, 2017, 11:29:53 AM »
I'm afraid it does not involve June deciding to pick up a book and go wandering around after her brains have been mashed to a pulp.


 @)(++(*

I have turned it into a gif.



Here it is gifv format
http://imgur.com/CGCOvJs.gifv

What has June carrying her bible with her when she walked around the bed got to do with my reconstruction based on NB sustaining his gsw's on the landing stairs and/or main stairs?  When I first mooted the latter Dec 2015 I don't recall you contributing anything positive to the thread other than facetious comments....

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6883.msg293857#msg293857

Did you discuss this with JB's defence when you dropped off your 'forensic evidence breakthrough'? 

What has happened to your other pet projects:

- 'Forensic evidence breakthrough'
- A pattern you believe you can see on SC's neck representing the threaded end of the barrel
- SC's TOD taking place when JB was outside with EP based on lividity, wet blood photos etc
- Marks on NB's arm(s) you believe were caused by fingernails

My guess is you realise they are not capable of being advanced in any shape or form so you've latched onto my soc reconstruction.   
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #267 on: May 17, 2017, 11:43:49 AM »
All this can ever be is supposition.

Yes I agree no one sane is going to take much notice of the likes of David and myself rambling on.  However I have emailed experts in the US and spoken with experts in the UK who have advised a 3d reconstruction is possible for use as a court exhibit.  This would be based on:

- Scaled drawings of WHF
- Autopsy photos and reports detailing victims' biometrics and gsw's
- Bloodstaining
- Ballistics evidence - distance of shots
- SOC photos dispalying casings
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline adam

Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #268 on: May 17, 2017, 11:47:10 AM »
Hopefully David will provide a source that the rifle casings travel forward 6 feet. Or is it sideways 6 feet ? Together with a source that the casings will bounce several feet off walls.

The only source supplied  at the moment are his own diagrams.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2017, 12:33:29 PM by adam »

Offline puglove

Re: Scene Of Crime Reconstruction
« Reply #269 on: May 17, 2017, 12:04:19 PM »
I'm afraid it does not involve June deciding to pick up a book and go wandering around after her brains have been mashed to a pulp.


 @)(++(*

I have turned it into a gif.



Here it is gifv format
http://imgur.com/CGCOvJs.gifv

Blimey, check out Annie Oakley!!  (Putting her prints all over the gun....)
Jeremy Bamber kicked Mike Tesko in the fanny.