Author Topic: The Plea  (Read 1923 times)

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Offline mrswah

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Re: The Plea
« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2017, 08:45:31 AM »
All prisoners are monitored for signs of mental stress from the moment they go inside.  Some do hide it though and that is when problems start.  Any prisoner can ask to be put on protection if they feel compromised because of their crime or other factors.

If you are attempting to excuse Vincent Tabak's confession on the basis of his treatment whilst on remand I'm afraid it won't wash.

I agree that it is easy (and also very common, IMO) for people (prisoners or not) to hide signs of mental stress. I have done it myself. Teachers are great actors!!

However, do prisoners necessarily get what they ask for?  I would imagine that is up to whomever they ask.

I don't think I am making excuses for VT's plea. As I said, I am only speculating, but, if his conscience had really been troubling him, I would have expected him to admit to killing Jo when he was first arrested. After all, according to his own testimony in court, he was expecting the police to knock on his door, and expecting them to find his DNA, etc. He's an intelligent man, and he would have known the game was up. Others accused of murder (Peter Sutcliffe and Nathan Matthews, being two examples) readily admitted their guilt while being questioned by the police, before they went on remand. They knew the game was up!

I have no experience of being inside a prison on remand, but I can't imagine it is all that great, and if it's someone's first time, and they cannot sleep, despite being given medication to help them sleep, I bet that person can quickly go slightly mad!!

Offline Leonora

Re: The Plea
« Reply #31 on: April 17, 2017, 09:44:15 AM »
... I have no experience of being inside a prison on remand, but I can't imagine it is all that great, and if it's someone's first time, and they cannot sleep, despite being given medication to help them sleep, I bet that person can quickly go slightly mad!!
You are not alone, mrswah. The vast majority of the general public has never been inside a prison either. That doesn't stop them from believing what they are told, and agreeing that prisoners deserve to be properly punished for what they have done, with no books to read, no sex, nor any say in how their lives are run. They either believe that prisoners should be made an example of, as they are in e.g. Peru and Hong Kong, or they believe that prisoners lead cushy lives, especially in foreign countries like Holland and Denmark. Very few people think critically as you do, mrswah, about what they know and what they don't know, and what the consequences are.

IMO prisons should be abolished altogether, or at any rate reserved for locking up former home secretaries and prison officers who masquerade as chaplains and then tell tales. I agree with Dr Martin Luther, who believed in leaving the punishment of unrepentant wrongdoers to God.

Offline [...]

Re: The Plea
« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2017, 03:17:34 PM »
You are not alone, mrswah. The vast majority of the general public has never been inside a prison either. That doesn't stop them from believing what they are told, and agreeing that prisoners deserve to be properly punished for what they have done, with no books to read, no sex, nor any say in how their lives are run. They either believe that prisoners should be made an example of, as they are in e.g. Peru and Hong Kong, or they believe that prisoners lead cushy lives, especially in foreign countries like Holland and Denmark. Very few people think critically as you do, mrswah, about what they know and what they don't know, and what the consequences are.

IMO prisons should be abolished altogether, or at any rate reserved for locking up former home secretaries and prison officers who masquerade as chaplains and then tell tales. I agree with Dr Martin Luther, who believed in leaving the punishment of unrepentant wrongdoers to God.


A bit deep going back to to the 1500's leonora.... I originally thought you had made an error in your writings and you were referring to A famous civil rights leader....

I wonder why you mentioned him?   Don't think he'll be around to help Dr Vincent Tabak do you....




Offline Leonora

Re: The Plea
« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2017, 04:21:40 PM »

A bit deep going back to to the 1500's leonora.... I originally thought you had made an error in your writings and you were referring to A famous civil rights leader....

I wonder why you mentioned him?   Don't think he'll be around to help Dr Vincent Tabak do you....
In the 1500's, remember, the treacherous "mainstream media" was in its infancy. Any document older than that was not written with the general public in mind. Although it has nothing to do with this forum, I strongly recommend Deuteronomy Ch. 15 as an explanation of why everything is so pear-shaped. I still believe that Dr Martin Luther was a formidably intelligent, honest man, who knew very well that what he had set in motion could only go wrong, but what choice did he have?

Apparently Martin Luther King went to Washington in 1963 to deliver his standard speech to the expectant multitude, but was interrupted by a Gospel singer, Mahalia Jackson, who urged him to "tell them about your dream, Martin". Whereupon he reportedly improvised the words that made the world sit up and listen.

I am sure we can agree that Peter Brotherton must have confirmed Vincent Tabak's scepticism about wolves in priest's clothing. On the other hand, Amanda Knox, despite her reluctance to wear a cross to please the jury, became very fond of Don Saulo Scarabattoli, the Catholic chaplain to the female inmates of Capanne prison.

Offline [...]

Re: The Plea
« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2017, 05:03:51 PM »
In the 1500's, remember, the treacherous "mainstream media" was in its infancy. Any document older than that was not written with the general public in mind. Although it has nothing to do with this forum, I strongly recommend Deuteronomy Ch. 15 as an explanation of why everything is so pear-shaped. I still believe that Dr Martin Luther was a formidably intelligent, honest man, who knew very well that what he had set in motion could only go wrong, but what choice did he have?

Apparently Martin Luther King went to Washington in 1963 to deliver his standard speech to the expectant multitude, but was interrupted by a Gospel singer, Mahalia Jackson, who urged him to "tell them about your dream, Martin". Whereupon he reportedly improvised the words that made the world sit up and listen.

I am sure we can agree that Peter Brotherton must have confirmed Vincent Tabak's scepticism about wolves in priest's clothing. On the other hand, Amanda Knox, despite her reluctance to wear a cross to please the jury, became very fond of Don Saulo Scarabattoli, the Catholic chaplain to the female inmates of Capanne prison.

Thanks leonora.. but I don't need a lesson on Black history... That's another topic all together, you'll be quoting Malcolm X next... Or telling me about Rosa Parks... Or The Watts Riots ....

You see the media and television is very deceptive... And as a young boy my son thought that all black people were rich after watching the "Fresh Prince of Bel Air... and as a young black man wanted to go live in America to be as successful as the people he had seen portrayed not really knowing the poverty that the majority of Black families live in...

But the media can twist anything or colour anything in such a way that people believe what they see and read... instead of finding out for themselves why the story doesn't add up.. And why what is put in front of them in pictures can be interpreted in so many ways, unless you have the correct information without the truth redacted then you believe what is presented..

And a British public happily went along with a media that dished up their daily dose of what they saw as a truth.. A British Public that wanted someone to pay for this crime that had been with them in their front rooms over a festive Period when Families spend time with their loved ones and probably the thought of the whole nation went with The Poor Yeates family having such a devastating loss...

It was a very emotional crime for all that followed it.... And a conclusion makes the public happy.. whether or not it is the correct conclusion doesn't seem to come into play.. But it helps a public move on and not worry that maybe there some loony out there who could still strike again...

And so when the media brings out words like confession/plea ... the public don't question this... they go along happily believing that He Must Be Guilty... Case Closed!!

So after the the trial the media are full of salacious stories that only hold true, the belief of the British public that This Dutchman deserves everything he gets because he must have been depraved in the first place...


Offline AerialHunter

Re: The Plea
« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2017, 06:30:08 PM »
Nine,

You have a similar attitude to me. Feed the press and the public with what they want and everyone is happy, depending on where you fit in to the plot.

We have some big, speculative IFBUTS here, and we, collectively don't have any real evidence to argue the case coherently that Tabak is innocent. However, it is highly unusual for highly educated, rational, sober individuals to suddenly turn into a cold, calculating murderer quite happily trotting round ASDA with a body in the boot of the car whilst planning where to dump the victim and then show no signs of stress, behavioural changes, etc.

What isn't unusual is for the police and the rest of the judicial system to twist circumstances, create confusion by introducing misinformation such as having positive DNA results and other evidence to lend weight to their speculative attempts to secure a conviction. Once you are faced with overwhelming odds stacked against you, whether they are true or not, any olive branch is worth clutching. Our untrustworthy police are likely to use such methodology on anyone they have on the rack, showing them how the charge could potentially b, in part at least, mitigated. The end result is the same, they win, and that, sadly, is the only thing that matters.

I can't see a way forward on this unless Tabak withdraws his admission.

Mr Jeffries, if you're reading this, I really need to talk to you. You may hold an answer you couldn't have realised, no-one else did.

AH
There is none so noble or in receipt of his fellows unbridled adulation as that police officer who willingly deceives to protect one of his own kind and, by virtue of birthright, extends that privilege to his family.

Offline mrswah

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Re: The Plea
« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2017, 07:09:45 PM »
Ariel Hunter and Nine

I agree with you wholeheartedly. Also,

I would love to speak to Mr Jefferies, too!

Offline mrswah

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Re: The Plea
« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2017, 07:20:30 PM »
I agree, AH, that unless VT says he is innocent, this cannot move forward.

I have been trying, without success, to contact him. I have started a new thread on this, and hope it is going to be approved by the mods, so that people can comment!

Offline [...]

Re: The Plea
« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2017, 10:26:38 AM »
I agree, AH, that unless VT says he is innocent, this cannot move forward.

I have been trying, without success, to contact him. I have started a new thread on this, and hope it is going to be approved by the mods, so that people can comment!


Dr Vincent Tabak may never speak up... we have to take into account how he is being detained and if he still is in solitary confinement...

Quote
The accounts of prisoners

Researchers have found that prisoners in solitary confinement often have little insight into their
own mental state and tend to minimise their reaction to solitary confinement and play down any
mental health problems (Grassian, 1983; Haney, 2003). Segregated prisoners also appear to have
a more negative view of psychiatric treatment in prison and tend to avoid seeking such help (Coid
et al. 2003-1:315). Mental health problems are particularly stigmatised amongst Muslim prisoners
who are reluctant to seek help (Robbins et al. 2005). A report of the inspection of a small unit for
Muslim prisoners detained under immigration law on the grounds of national security in the UK, for
Sourcebook on solitary confinement: The health effects of solitary confinement
example, identified that five of the eight had significant mental health problems but that there was
very little take up of the mental health service provided (An Inspection of the Category A Detainee
Unit at Long Lartin, HMCIP, 2007).

Nonetheless, accounts from prisoners themselves illustrate a
range of severe adverse health effects. What follows is what has emerged from interviews with
prisoners in isolation, or after the event, and from writings by formerly isolated prisoners.

I find this most revealing....

Quote
One of the problems most commonly reported by prisoners who were isolated is that they found
it hard to distinguish between reality and their own thoughts, or found reality so painful that
they created their own fantasy world. Researchers link such incidents to the absence of external
stimuli which results in the brain starting to create its own stimulation, manifesting in fantasy and
hallucinations. One study of prisoners who were isolated for periods ranging from 11 days to 10
months reported both auditory and visual hallucinations. One interviewee described how: “the cell
walls start wavering... everything in the cell starts moving; you feel that you are losing your vision”. Others
reported auditory hallucinations: “I overhear guards talking. Did they say that? Yes? No? It gets confusing.
Am I losing my mind?” Prisoners also reported high sensitivity to noise and smells: “you get sensitive to
noise. The plumbing system... the water rushes through the pipes- it’s too loud, gets on your nerves. I can’t
stand it. Meals- I can’t stand the smells....the only thing I can stand is the bread” (Grassian, 1983).

So after 11 days Dr Vincent Tabak could start to hallucinate both auditory and visually... Yet NO medical assessment was ever brought to court...

How is it possible to trust the statement of "Brotherton" (IMO)... If Brotherton was not medically qualified to identify whether or not Dr Vincent Tabak was Hallucinating?// Or Hearing things...!! or unable to distinguish between Reality or his own thoughts!

It's quite feasible with all of the information and interogations taking place that he just imagined he was responsible.. NOT THAT HE DID IT!...

Which would also go to PROVE (IMO) why there were such gapping holes in his testimony... He couldn't answer the more detailed questions because they were possibly not the questions that had been put before him when he was being interogated...

This is why the Police Interviews are SO IMPORTANT!!!

By "May".. when he goes to The Old Bailey which will be months of solitary confinement.. he could have easily pleaded "GUILTY"... because he no longer Knew what was Real and what was NOT Real!!!

And with this in mind we have A possible IDEA why Dr Vincent Tabak wouldn't say he was INNOCENT.....

Maybe he just doesn't know his **** from his Elbow anymore....

http://solitaryconfinement.org/uploads/sourcebook_web.pdf

EDIT.... Would Dr Vincent Tabak have been made aware of what supposedly was on his laptop ??

I truly believe that this case needs looking at properly...  I have never been convinced about the Internet searches... as he could not have done 2 of them...  as he was out of the house at the time...  CCTV had shown Dr Vincent Tabak out of his house at 1:38am on 18th December 2010...

Yet i'll repeat... the searches were at :
Quote
On 18 Dec 2010, Tabak searched at
1.26 am- ‘BBC news’ and ‘weather forecast’
1.46 am- ‘weather forecast’
1.47 am- ‘BBC Bristol news’

http://www.criminal-lawyer.org.uk/39-CLN-JAN-2012.pdf


Offline Leonora

Re: The Plea
« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2017, 11:16:25 AM »

Dr Vincent Tabak may never speak up... we have to take into account how he is being detained and if he still is in solitary confinement...

I find this most revealing....

So after 11 days Dr Vincent Tabak could start to hallucinate both auditory and visually... Yet NO medical assessment was ever brought to court...

How is it possible to trust the statement of "Brotherton" (IMO)... If Brotherton was not medically qualified to identify whether or not Dr Vincent Tabak was Hallucinating?// Or Hearing things...!! or unable to distinguish between Reality or his own thoughts!

It's quite feasible with all of the information and interogations taking place that he just imagined he was responsible.. NOT THAT HE DID IT!...

By "May".. when he goes to The Old Bailey which will be months of solitary confinement.. he could have easily pleaded "GUILTY"... because he no longer Knew what was Real and what was NOT Real!!!

And with this in mind we have A possible IDEA why Dr Vincent Tabak wouldn't say he was INNOCENT.....

Maybe he just doesn't know his **** from his Elbow anymore....

http://solitaryconfinement.org/uploads/sourcebook_web.pdf
For goodness sake, VT HAS spoken up - at his trial - and neither you nor anyone else believed him! So why on earth should he speak up NOW? For heaven's sakes don't join the Jones camp - "Only VT knows what happened that night" - Jones is also a PROVEN liar, and deservedly proud of getting away with it.

If VT had been subject to mind-bending treatment that led him to enter a guilty plea, the reaction of his lawyers, his family, his friends, and everyone else on 5 May 2011 would have been QUITE DIFFERENT. You are wilfully ignoring the overwhelming evidence that the plea was faked - without his consent - not least because we know - and VT knows - that the chaplain confession was also faked.

By the time the case came to trial, VT MUST have joined the conspirators. He would only have done that in return for a promise of a secret amnesty and a new identity. That is why no one on his side is saying anything. If there were no conspiracy and no amnesty, then EVERYTHING would have been different, and he would have sacked his lawyers. His new team would have called for a mistrial and an investigation into Judge Field's integrity. None of this has happened.

His brother and sisters wouldn't have sat so meekly in the public gallery if their brother were suffering from isolation hallucinations.

Offline [...]

Re: The Plea
« Reply #40 on: May 10, 2017, 11:36:34 AM »
For goodness sake, VT HAS spoken up - at his trial - and neither you nor anyone else believed him! So why on earth should he speak up NOW? For heaven's sakes don't join the Jones camp - "Only VT knows what happened that night" - Jones is also a PROVEN liar, and deservedly proud of getting away with it.

If VT had been subject to mind-bending treatment that led him to enter a guilty plea, the reaction of his lawyers, his family, his friends, and everyone else on 5 May 2011 would have been QUITE DIFFERENT. You are wilfully ignoring the overwhelming evidence that the plea was faked - without his consent - not least because we know - and VT knows - that the chaplain confession was also faked.

By the time the case came to trial, VT MUST have joined the conspirators. He would only have done that in return for a promise of a secret amnesty and a new identity. That is why no one on his side is saying anything. If there were no conspiracy and no amnesty, then EVERYTHING would have been different, and he would have sacked his lawyers. His new team would have called for a mistrial and an investigation into Judge Field's integrity. None of this has happened.

His brother and sisters wouldn't have sat so meekly in the public gallery if their brother were suffering from isolation hallucinations.

Leonora I don't go with your theory....  And I'm not here to argue with you...   Although there is something incredibly fishy about this case....

I'm in nobody's camp as you call it... I just believe Dr Vincent Tabak is Innocent and was hoping the information I provided would go to someway in which to establish a possibility of why he may have made such a statement....


Offline Leonora

Re: The Plea
« Reply #41 on: May 10, 2017, 11:53:21 AM »
Leonora I don't go with your theory....  And I'm not here to argue with you...   Although there is something incredibly fishy about this case....

I'm in nobody's camp as you call it... I just believe Dr Vincent Tabak is Innocent and was hoping the information I provided would go to someway in which to establish a possibility of why he may have made such a statement....
Nobody could accuse you of being in anyone's camp - I just hope you don't go there!

You have been very active on this forum in exposing numerous absurdities in this case, by producing facts and drawing conclusions - many of them new to me - like VT's "ordinary" bicycle - and you leave us in no doubt that YOU too think they ARE absurdities.

I wouldn't dignify my arguments as "theories" - any alternative scenario would indeed be absurd. You sourself have emphasised that VT had nothing to gain by pleading guilty. Even if he himself was delusional, a lawyer like William Clegg would never have let his client plead guilty UNLESS there was a very serious hidden agenda behind it.

If you "don't go with" what you call "my theory", then you have a lot more more explaining to do. And explaining is not the least of your talents.

Offline [...]

Re: The Plea
« Reply #42 on: May 10, 2017, 12:32:12 PM »
Nobody could accuse you of being in anyone's camp - I just hope you don't go there!

You have been very active on this forum in exposing numerous absurdities in this case, by producing facts and drawing conclusions - many of them new to me - like VT's "ordinary" bicycle - and you leave us in no doubt that YOU too think they ARE absurdities.

I wouldn't dignify my arguments as "theories" - any alternative scenario would indeed be absurd. You sourself have emphasised that VT had nothing to gain by pleading guilty. Even if he himself was delusional, a lawyer like William Clegg would never have let his client plead guilty UNLESS there was a very serious hidden agenda behind it.

If you "don't go with" what you call "my theory", then you have a lot more more explaining to do. And explaining is not the least of your talents.


leonora... I don't know WHY certain things happened in this case... All I do is find what facts I can.... and cross reference the inconsistencies in the case and statements made by various individuals... using links.... transcripts ...quotes.... images and video's ..

I don't know why they thought Dr Vincent Tabak would fit the bill... because they have never fully explained what in Flat 1 made them think an assault had taken place... A flat that is virtually pristeen...

They contradict themselves many many times.... And are happy to take the word of one person without any evidence to back this up...

The flat was a mess when Greg Returned home... The dishes were in the sink according to her mum.... (So Greg hadn't done the dishes before they arrived)

Who starts doing the dishes when you believe that there has been an abduction????
The parents were more concerned with checking outside and neighbours as to Joanna Yeates whereabouts...

I'm sure it's the last thing on anyones mind... Yet the kitchen is VOID of ANYTHING...

They removed the carpets... Why??  Where's the hoover ???  where's the washing machine ??  why has the flat got NO personality?? It should have the occupants own style imprinted all over it... But to me it looks like they have had the cleaners in...

In all honesty I cannot say why they concentrated on that block of flats... There were many other avenues that would be more suitable eg: Friends/acquaintences/ colleagues..

But they have zoomed into that flat and the rest of the building... without anything shown at court to prove a murder had taken place there.. Rather it shows that it's a clean and tidy place.... That is so wrong on all levels!!! (IMO)..

We can summise that the Police accessed Dr Vincent Tabak's flat before his arrest on 20th January 2010.. but we can't prove it... It's a possibility seeing as they had the keys to the flat and Dr Vincent Tabak and Tanja Morson were away from it...

Talking of that.... What Police Investigation makes it Impossible for the neighbours to live in their own home ??

That is WRONG... Also.... They were happy for the man with the sock to wander about the drive... what were they actually doing in those basement flats for all that time?

As you see I have questions I cannot answer... But if there was some great conspiracy going on and identities changing I wouldn't imagine (personally).. that they would have gone through with a full blown trial... After all they had the "Guilty To Manslaughter" plea at The Old Bailey....

If it was a case as you have suggested that someone took Dr Vincent Tabak's place on the video link.... Why did they just not have them pleading "Guilty to Murder" in the first place .... Then the whole thing could be quietly hushed up...

Probably then...no one would have even questioned the case whatsoever!!










Offline Leonora

Re: The Plea
« Reply #43 on: May 10, 2017, 01:55:02 PM »
...
If it was a case as you have suggested that someone took Dr Vincent Tabak's place on the video link.... Why did they just not have them pleading "Guilty to Murder" in the first place .... Then the whole thing could be quietly hushed up...

Probably then...no one would have even questioned the case whatsoever!!
Quite.

For reasons yet to be revealed, Joanna Yeates's disappearance received national coverage, hour by hour, from day one. If Vincent Tabak had pleaded guilty to murder and the whole thing had been hushed up, the news media would have been furious. They had already had to shell out a lot of money to Christopher Jefferies, despite having done no more than print malicious gossip about him fed to them by the police - and they needed a spectacular trial to enable them to recoup their expenses in the libel case.

As the landlord himself pointed out, the media would certainly remain very sceptical about his innocence, as long as they could entertain serious doubts about Vincent Tabak's motive and guilt.
 
Without his expensive trial, no intelligent citizen would seriously believe someone like VT had murdered JY with no motive and no bad character evidence and no child pornography. All this was needed so as to make it impossible for people like you, me, mrswah and AH to lead normal lives without being accused of having forgotten our alzheimers medicine and worse, surrounded as we are by intelligent people who believe everything they read in the media, no matter how bizarre.

Offline [...]

Re: The Plea
« Reply #44 on: May 10, 2017, 02:15:25 PM »
Quite.

For reasons yet to be revealed, Joanna Yeates's disappearance received national coverage, hour by hour, from day one. If Vincent Tabak had pleaded guilty to murder and the whole thing had been hushed up, the news media would have been furious. They had already had to shell out a lot of money to Christopher Jefferies, despite having done no more than print malicious gossip about him fed to them by the police - and they needed a spectacular trial to enable them to recoup their expenses in the libel case.

As the landlord himself pointed out, the media would certainly remain very sceptical about his innocence, as long as they could entertain serious doubts about Vincent Tabak's motive and guilt.
 
Without his expensive trial, no intelligent citizen would seriously believe someone like VT had murdered JY with no motive and no bad character evidence and no child pornography. All this was needed so as to make it impossible for people like you, me, mrswah and AH to lead normal lives without being accused of having forgotten our alzheimers medicine and worse, surrounded as we are by intelligent people who believe everything they read in the media, no matter how bizarre.

CJ never sued the Police.....  He did the Papers.... But the media hasn't got the sway I believe to make for a spectacular trial ....

The trial cannot possible be for the reason your suggesting... about recouping losses !